Spurrier speaks out on the play calling
- Thread starter GatorJ
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- Sep 4, 2014
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@soflagator I'm detecting a little sarcasm in this thread, which is completely out of character for you. Just let us know if you need a prostitute, good buddy, we're here for you
Guys, the prostitute thing is over. Ox had a whole post about how tough he’d been on some and how disappointed he was with Napier at this point. Even he wasn’t defending things as they currently sit.
Of course, he’s also admitted his biggest jumps in traffic and memberships are when we’re in a new head coaching search. So he may just be looking at this from a purely selfish standpoint.
- Jun 14, 2014
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Oh NOW you tell us! Well what the hell are we supposed to do with Tiffany now? She's headed over to your place regardless, so I hope you're happy
- Jun 19, 2014
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- Jul 27, 2018
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People talk about loading the box. What does that mean to you? As a former DC, it means I have man to man (Cover 0) with no safety help. So, "load" the box all you want on me, I will go 3-4 wide and I just have to win ONE of those battles.
I was an OL coach and run game coordinator for a year. Always told the QB to count the box. If the O has 7 and the D has 6, its a push. Run or pass. The D should always have 1 less than than the O to have what is referred to as even. Equal players, advantage pass. 2 less than the O, advantage run. Its not hard if you can do math without using your toes.
Where it gets tricky is with safety run blitzes from an even box and you get caught in a run play. Sometimes the D wins, sometimes not. Or they drop immediately on the snap to zones expecting or guessing pass and you have a run play on.
You don't need 4 wide to go deep. You just need 1. My issue with the pass routes is we do not threaten all levels. Level 1 is behind the line or 1-3 yards down field. Level 2 is 5-12. Level 3 12-20. Level 4 is 20+. Had a coach that used to love a spread O and then run 4 hitches at 5-7 yards. If you add up the numbers, dropping 7 bodies on D, 4 WRs running hitches at 7 yards, here is how it breaks down.
Given a cover 2, the safeties don't even have to drop. They are on the hash. The 5 underneath people have to cover the width of the field (53 yards) and drop 2 yards. The widest hitch will be 10 yards from the sidelines, so now 53 becomes 33 yards. Put 5 defenders there and each defender has to cover 3 yards left, 3 yards right, 6 yards total and STILL have safety help. That's why these passes have to be thrown QUICKLY and ACCURATELY. Now Metz has done a good job with these throws and I have grown very impressed with him.
What I would rather see with a hitch is a deeper threat behind it like a smash concept, a 5 yard in with the X or Z with a corner route behind it with a drag route coming backside from the slot and a 15 yard dig with the backside X or Z. These concepts threaten the ENTIRE field. You can even throw a backside Wheel route with the RB because the backside slot and WR are clearing out that space. This allows the QB to focus on one side of the field and will see all 4 receivers eventually come into view.
Another thing. Smart football guys are not necessarily smart coaches and smart coaches are not necessarily great play callers. There is no doubt in my mind that Dan Mullen is probably the most gifted offensive mind outside of SOS. Todd Grantham knows more about defense than probably any other coach not named Nick Saban. Mullen could design and O and call a great game, but he just couldn't coach or identify talent. Grantham could neither call a game or teach a D what to do, but he was a great defensive mind, just couldn't translate that to the field. I coached with some of all these types of players. One year I had a DB coach who couldn't teach squat and couldn't design a D if his life depended on it, but he had an almost PlayStation like knack for calling a corner blitz or rolling coverage and when to do it. It takes all kinds but if you don't know your shortcomings, you will fail as a team. Right now, we are failing as a team because our HC can't do HC stuff and OC stuff on game day. Few can and you have to have an absolute stud defensive staff where you don't have to talk to them during the game. How can you coach your O as an OC / HC when your D is on the field?
I was an OL coach and run game coordinator for a year. Always told the QB to count the box. If the O has 7 and the D has 6, its a push. Run or pass. The D should always have 1 less than than the O to have what is referred to as even. Equal players, advantage pass. 2 less than the O, advantage run. Its not hard if you can do math without using your toes.
Where it gets tricky is with safety run blitzes from an even box and you get caught in a run play. Sometimes the D wins, sometimes not. Or they drop immediately on the snap to zones expecting or guessing pass and you have a run play on.
You don't need 4 wide to go deep. You just need 1. My issue with the pass routes is we do not threaten all levels. Level 1 is behind the line or 1-3 yards down field. Level 2 is 5-12. Level 3 12-20. Level 4 is 20+. Had a coach that used to love a spread O and then run 4 hitches at 5-7 yards. If you add up the numbers, dropping 7 bodies on D, 4 WRs running hitches at 7 yards, here is how it breaks down.
Given a cover 2, the safeties don't even have to drop. They are on the hash. The 5 underneath people have to cover the width of the field (53 yards) and drop 2 yards. The widest hitch will be 10 yards from the sidelines, so now 53 becomes 33 yards. Put 5 defenders there and each defender has to cover 3 yards left, 3 yards right, 6 yards total and STILL have safety help. That's why these passes have to be thrown QUICKLY and ACCURATELY. Now Metz has done a good job with these throws and I have grown very impressed with him.
What I would rather see with a hitch is a deeper threat behind it like a smash concept, a 5 yard in with the X or Z with a corner route behind it with a drag route coming backside from the slot and a 15 yard dig with the backside X or Z. These concepts threaten the ENTIRE field. You can even throw a backside Wheel route with the RB because the backside slot and WR are clearing out that space. This allows the QB to focus on one side of the field and will see all 4 receivers eventually come into view.
Another thing. Smart football guys are not necessarily smart coaches and smart coaches are not necessarily great play callers. There is no doubt in my mind that Dan Mullen is probably the most gifted offensive mind outside of SOS. Todd Grantham knows more about defense than probably any other coach not named Nick Saban. Mullen could design and O and call a great game, but he just couldn't coach or identify talent. Grantham could neither call a game or teach a D what to do, but he was a great defensive mind, just couldn't translate that to the field. I coached with some of all these types of players. One year I had a DB coach who couldn't teach squat and couldn't design a D if his life depended on it, but he had an almost PlayStation like knack for calling a corner blitz or rolling coverage and when to do it. It takes all kinds but if you don't know your shortcomings, you will fail as a team. Right now, we are failing as a team because our HC can't do HC stuff and OC stuff on game day. Few can and you have to have an absolute stud defensive staff where you don't have to talk to them during the game. How can you coach your O as an OC / HC when your D is on the field?
- Jun 12, 2014
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I agree with everything except the part where the fish drowned.Since our failed string of coaches I've been doing a deep dive of success vs failure. One of the areas I've been mulling over is control.
As Spurrier said here, he's got to throw some deep balls. And he said it in such a matter of fact way. That tells me that to him it's obvious.
The mentality of a ball control coach such as Billy and Muschamp is very risk averse. It's basically hog the ball and don't give the other team the ball ever. It indicates to me a very low level of trust. Trust in himself, trust in his team, trust in his scheme. That lack of trust then must be of their own capabilities. "I don't know what the other team will do with the ball so I'll keep it from them as much as possible". With Muschamp it was TOP. With Billy it's run and throw behind the line.
With guys like Smart, Saban, Meyer, Spurrier. These guys are thinkers, schemers, planners. Their not hindered by their fear of the other team because they have confidence in their team because they practice it and coach it. Spurrier air raid, Urban finesse, Saban developing talent, etc.
Yes Billy was successful at ULL because he out talented the other teams. Watch the games, I did (a little), it was ugly. He was a big fish in a small pond. Now he's a small fish in a big pond and he's drowning. An OC will not make one ounce of difference. Billy lacks confidence in his abilities. He says it every presser, "I've got to coach them better, it's things we can fix, etc." Well Billy, what are you going to coach this week that you haven't coached for the last two months? Or better yet, now that You've lost, now your going to coach them? It makes no sense because it's a stupid thing to say. He doesn't know how to fix it and that's why issues from game one persist. He wont let an OC open up because he has no plan for if it doesn't work. Muschamp went through how many OC's?
Nothing anyone says or does will change what Billy does and everyone sees it but him. To change anything at this point would be to admit defeat. Not going to happen. Billy is going to prove to Clemson and Alabama that he is the best thing they ever had so he can walk back in like ...
- Jun 14, 2014
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Teams have literally gone Cover 0 against us and we've still run the ball into it. It's on film. However, I agree with your point and would note that we've faced a lot more Cover 1 than 0 when it comes to that.
This is where (only in my opinion) the bunch formations we run hinder us. For some reason we like to keep everyone close to the scrum so even when we do get the numbers in the box to run, we're not doing our run game favors by widening gaps on the edges.
Absolutely. This is the fun cat-mouse game that the offense and defense plays with each other, and often what separates the best playcallers from the rest.
I'll take this even one step further than you. A lot of times we'll attack levels 1-3, but we'll run every receiver to nearly the same spot on the field so that when you stop the film it almost looks like a straight line from the QB to the level 3. Now add in receivers not getting proper depth on their routes and we've ended up with all three of them within 5 yards of each other when the QB is looking to throw in rhythm. It's maddening.
You'll get no argument from me that our passing game needs help. Hell, hiring you would a be a huge upgrade from what we have right now.
Yeah, no, but we can agree to disagree. An argument could be made that Dan was at the top for his version of the spread option he ran. After years of running it, he pretty much has contingencies in place for nearly every defense thrown at him.
Again, this sounds like hyperbole to try and make a point.
Caveat being within his framework of his version of the spread option. He needed Brian Johnson to scheme the passing game for him when Trask was here, or we would have ended up wasting the best pocket-passer we've had here since Grossman.
I respect you and your opinions, so will just agree to disagree.
100% agree.
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- Aug 17, 2018
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Yea, going to also disagree that Grantham was an elite DC. What he was damn good at was designing blitzes and defensive pressure. I'd even agree if you wanted to call him elite there.
But what he couldn't do is teach it worth a damn and he almost always struggled when going against elite offensive talent (ones that had great OCs or good to great QBs/OLs). About the one exception in his tenure here was the 2018 win vs Burrow in the Swamp.
But what he couldn't do is teach it worth a damn and he almost always struggled when going against elite offensive talent (ones that had great OCs or good to great QBs/OLs). About the one exception in his tenure here was the 2018 win vs Burrow in the Swamp.
- Sep 4, 2014
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He also had a couple of good games in 2019 like Auburn. But risk/reward has never favored him throughout his entire career.
- Oct 23, 2014
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I actually think this post right here is the answer. He is risk averse. Don't make the big mistake. Don't give up the big play. Win TOP. Get a lead (however small) and sit on it. Run run run. The more elaborate our routes, the more chances for making the big mistake. Etc. It is who he is. You are asking the leopard to change his spots. Stricklin isn't going to stroll into his office one day and say "Billy I'm going to need you to run the Fun N Gun from here on out" and then all of a sudden we're the 90's offense again.Since our failed string of coaches I've been doing a deep dive of success vs failure. One of the areas I've been mulling over is control.
As Spurrier said here, he's got to throw some deep balls. And he said it in such a matter of fact way. That tells me that to him it's obvious.
The mentality of a ball control coach such as Billy and Muschamp is very risk averse. It's basically hog the ball and don't give the other team the ball ever. It indicates to me a very low level of trust. Trust in himself, trust in his team, trust in his scheme. That lack of trust then must be of their own capabilities. "I don't know what the other team will do with the ball so I'll keep it from them as much as possible". With Muschamp it was TOP. With Billy it's run and throw behind the line.
With guys like Smart, Saban, Meyer, Spurrier. These guys are thinkers, schemers, planners. Their not hindered by their fear of the other team because they have confidence in their team because they practice it and coach it. Spurrier air raid, Urban finesse, Saban developing talent, etc.
Yes Billy was successful at ULL because he out talented the other teams. Watch the games, I did (a little), it was ugly. He was a big fish in a small pond. Now he's a small fish in a big pond and he's drowning. An OC will not make one ounce of difference. Billy lacks confidence in his abilities. He says it every presser, "I've got to coach them better, it's things we can fix, etc." Well Billy, what are you going to coach this week that you haven't coached for the last two months? Or better yet, now that You've lost, now your going to coach them? It makes no sense because it's a stupid thing to say. He doesn't know how to fix it and that's why issues from game one persist. He wont let an OC open up because he has no plan for if it doesn't work. Muschamp went through how many OC's?
Nothing anyone says or does will change what Billy does and everyone sees it but him. To change anything at this point would be to admit defeat. Not going to happen. Billy is going to prove to Clemson and Alabama that he is the best thing they ever had so he can walk back in like ...
It is not for nothing that we have 2 offensive line coaches; ball control/TOP offense depends on it.
- Aug 17, 2018
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I think that game had as much to do with Auburn's QB being a true freshman in Bo Nix playing like the fresh out of hs 19 yr old he was.
- Jul 27, 2018
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You disagree with an argument I didn't make and then agree with the argument I did make. Strange.
I said Grantham had a great defensive mind, not that he was an elite DC. I would love to read his DC manual just out of curiosity. Said pretty specifically he couldn't call a game and couldn't coach/teach.
Look, Grantham is a smart defensive guy. He knows more about defense than anyone here. I would also assert that most anyone here could take 25% of his playbook and teach it and have much better success than him. Dude could not teach at all. Coached with a former QB AA and in his college HOF. Phenomenal arm talent, but couldn't TEACH. Didn't have the skills. If you couldn't pick up his way of explaining it, you just didn't get it. In my former profession as an Infantry CO, I explained things 5-6-7 times if I had to. My life may depend on it. He explained things ONCE and it was so discombobulated I didn't understand his pass schemes. You literally had to know over 100 plus route combos and then you had to know them for FOUR different positions. That's 400 plays.
I took that and condensed it to NINE route and you could run an almost infinite number of route combo and the receivers only had to know 9 routes. I installed that in less 30 minutes. Now this was HS but still at a pretty high level. Only had about 10 hours a week contact with them so you can't make it too complex.
- Aug 17, 2018
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My apologies if I was taking what you said out of context. You seemed to be suggesting that Grantham was in Saban's category as far as designing a defense--and I'd consider Saban an elite defensive mind.
I disagree that Grantham's in that echelon; but if that's not what you're trying to say, than no worries.
Completely agree that he couldn't teach worth a damn and that his scheme was waaay too complex for what he was dealing with. He wanted to implement NFL-esque defensive schemes with guys who were 3 star recruits and not elite athletes. Sure, that works if your DE has linebacker speed and is an NFL first round talent...but when it's a 3 star guy that can't move that fast...well, you're going to be out of position. And his players were...frequently.
- Jul 27, 2018
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Designing a defense, yes. Grantham had NFL DC opportunities. But even at that level, you HAVE TO TEACH IT. He couldn't do that.
Can't teach, can't recruit, can't call plays. He won't ever be at Saban's level because you have to do all of that plus design a D around the talent you have. He wanted to run a complex scheme that college kids couldn't pick up with 20 hours a week.
- Jun 12, 2014
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Meh
He just drew up plays that were schematically unsound. Sure they had some moments against inexperienced players and poorly coached teams, but he had no chance against well coached and prepared teams.
- Dec 31, 2018
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It doesn't seem like much to ask to have the quarterback throw beyond the sticks more often than not on 3rd and 4th down. Sure, the defense often dictates the pass routes. But time and time again its dink and dunk stuff short of the first down marker. If I recall correctly, Mertz threw a 1 yard pass against Kentucky on 4th and 2! But, what do I know? I'm just a casual fan who doesn't know what a midline is.
- Jul 29, 2014
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Have you bothered to look at his protection? Mertz isn't going to set the world on fire but he's adequate enough with the talent around him to win 7-8 games.....show me where you see the other 3-4 wins looking forward at this point with any QB?
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- Aug 1, 2018
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