Baseball's Hall without Bonds or Clemens is a joke

LeeForThree said:

But literally the advantages gained from steroids are directly unknown on that level. .....You can assume this happened, but it's just an assumption and not correct imo.

Added to the fact that pitchers were using it just as much as hitters....

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There is so much gray area that it would be impossible to quantify what juicers did to the game.

I think every player should want to enhance their performance in every sport as much as possible, until a certain line is reached. It's only a matter of where they draw the line personally and where the people who pay them draw the line and where we as fans draw the line.

So, where do athletes draw the line individually? Some draw the line very high and won't risk their overall health at all to increase performance. Unless these types of athletes are enormously blessed with God-given talent, they don't make it in a sport like baseball (or at least didn't in the juicing era) even if they work their tails off. That isn't the sport that I want my son to put his hopes and dreams in. I remember how I idolized the Smoltz, Maddux, Pendleton, Grace, Sandberg, and Dawsons when I was his age. Now I look back and can't be sure that any or all of those guys weren't cheating. I'm almost positive at least some of them were not, but the steroid era has left me unable to put them in the place that I use to have them. Some of that is just growing up I guess, but from first grade through high school I lived to turn on TBS when I got home after ball practice and dream about what it meant to be one of those guys.

So when the athletes won't draw the line themselves, their bosses should, right? Well.......the steroid era was not just ignored by the bosses, they may have fanned the flames more than we will ever know.

So when the bosses can't contain something that everybody knows shouldn't be going on, how does it get resolved? Fans left baseball. It is still a multi-billion dollar industry, but in my opinion nowhere near as big as it could have been if the bosses would have taken action early on. It could still be America's game. It could be the #1 option for fans running from the politicized NFL and the NBA floppers and whiners. But I believe it is not positioned for that due to the steroid era and its lingering effects.

The withholding of the HOF is another way for non-athlete, non-owners (those of us who are not direct beneficiaries of the effects of PEDs) to say, hey, we are not going to put up with that. We are going to do what we can to not let these guys who are breaking the rules be our kids heroes, so that we have to break it to them one day that they can't reach those heights without drugs. In my mind it's not a matter of if these guys would have had a Hall of Fame career without the PEDs or whether the pitchers throwing to them were on PEDs. It's about whether I can tell my boy he can idolize the guy who hit the ball longer and farther more times than anyone in the history of the world. And the only way I can say that with a clear conscience is to say Bonds and Clemens should not be in the Hall.

So, obviously, I believe the line should be drawn above drugs. But what about performance enhancing in other ways? Are linemen who overeat to keep their weight up and hurt their bodies and risk their long term health in the process any different than a juicer? Are boxers who undoubtedly do damage to kidneys and other organs by cutting weight and enhancing their performance by making a lower weight class any different? There are dozens of other examples. Each one would have to be looked at individually.

maheo30 said:

So Bonds should be voted in because he would have been a HoFer?

I didn’t get a chance to watch a ton of Vlad, but was he really that good? He was a freak athlete and an all-star, but he never struck me as a HoFer. As I sai, that’s based on limited viewing.

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Vlad = 11 years straight of .300 plus (and usually well over) and 25 plus HR (and usually well over). Plus he played for two franchises that don't have many representatives (Not that it should mean anything but it does).

'78 said:

Exactly. Steroids have nothing to do with reading a curve or slider or making consistent contact with the ball. Baseball skills do.

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I suppose the juicers juice because their balls are too big and get in the way and they need them to shrink so they don't roll a nut when they slide into second base.

To act like Steroids didn't jack up the home run numbers like crazy is insane. Just look at the decrease in players with crazy home run numbers after the real crackdown on steroids and the rise in them when it became a big issue. Heck I remember Dale Murphy in the early 80s hitting so many near miss warning track shots to every home run that his mid 30s home run numbers would easily be in the mid 50s or higher if he was steroid aided.

Barry Bonds had jacked up home run numbers big time from 2000 to 2004 (the year prior to steroid testing) from steroids at an age you would usually start declining physically.

Since65 said:

Hall of Fame voters have already put steroid users into their special club. Piazza, Bagwell and Pudge were all connected to steroids. And who knows how many others not named in the Mitchell report were using. It was rampant during that period of time. If they want to create a "Steroid user wing" in the Hall that's fine. It's ludicrous to keep the best players from that era out of the Hall in the name of purity.

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True but you need some decent evidence to keep someone out I would say. I know Piazza used steroids early in his career to get bigger because he made a big transformation in adding weight over a few months and had that acne all over his back that users get sometimes when he didn't have that previously.

I’m not sure if Bonds would’ve been a HOF’er. No way to know if he could’ve maintained his level of hitting after his prime, and he would’ve needed his longevity to get him in probably. But he probably would’ve been in the hall. But you don’t know because he cheated.

I'm finding it very hard to G.A.S. about who makes it into the baseball HOF.

This particular subject will continue to provide ammunition for spirited debate for years to come.

I do believe there are already steroid users in the Hall and voters will continue to elect new former users in the future. It will just be those players who were able to avoid suspicion or detection of their using.

If you don't believe that Bonds had a Hall of Fame career prior to his alleged juicing I would question your baseball expertise.

It is interesting that football fans simply don't care about players using PED's. Any announcement of a current player suspended for using a banned substance is met with a yawn and the question of "when can he return to the lineup?". Baseball definitely has a solid hold on the righteous indignation response.

Since65 said:

It is interesting that football fans simply don't care about players using PED's. Any announcement of a current player suspended for using a banned substance is met with a yawn and the question of "when can he return to the lineup?". Baseball definitely has a solid hold on the righteous indignation response.

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NFL has had a policy in place since the 80's, the problem with Baseball is they all knew it was going on. Helped cover up the lie, and once it was discovered they were part of the cover-up. They are trying to save face by being extreme on the other side. It's about public relations more than anything on the field.

Gatorbait25 said:

I couldn't agree more 78. Chipper is probably the best switch hitter since Mantle. He deserves it, as do Sheff/Bonds/ Rose and a number of others that likely never will. I'm not sure how one can justify keeping Bonds/Rose out while not holding Chipper accountable for his past discretion as a married man knocking up a hooters waitress.

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Chipper and Mantle were gay?

TheDouglas78 said:

NFL has had a policy in place since the 80's, the problem with Baseball is they all knew it was going on. Helped cover up the lie, and once it was discovered they were part of the cover-up. They are trying to save face by being extreme on the other side. It's about public relations more than anything on the field.

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I agree that baseball hierarchy turned its back on the problem. But football has a different relationship with statistics in that they're not as important (sacred even) as they are in baseball. PED's impacted baseball's sacred cow of statistics and records and thus upset the fan base. With football it's more about winning and Super Bowl titles and not so much about career leaders in any particular category. So enhanced performance is not as important.

Since65 said:

I agree that baseball hierarchy turned its back on the problem. But football has a different relationship with statistics in that they're not as important (sacred even) as they are in baseball. PED's impacted baseball's sacred cow of statistics and records and thus upset the fan base. With football it's more about winning and Super Bowl titles and not so much about career leaders in any particular category. So enhanced performance is not as important.

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Completely agree....

divits said:

The pictures speak for themselves. Bonds cheated and without steroids would have had a hard time picking up a bat let alone swinging it hard enough to hit a HR.

Ruth did it on hot dogs, beer and cigarettes.

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Had Bonds done as much charitable work as the Bambino, his steroid use likely would have been minimized. The work Ruth did with unwed mothers is quite impressive.

cover2 said:

. The work Ruth did with unwed mothers is quite impressive.

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I thought he tried to make the unwed into mothers.

Since65 said:

This particular subject will continue to provide ammunition for spirited debate for years to come.

I do believe there are already steroid users in the Hall and voters will continue to elect new former users in the future. It will just be those players who were able to avoid suspicion or detection of their using.

If you don't believe that Bonds had a Hall of Fame career prior to his alleged juicing I would question your baseball expertise.

It is interesting that football fans simply don't care about players using PED's. Any announcement of a current player suspended for using a banned substance is met with a yawn and the question of "when can he return to the lineup?". Baseball definitely has a solid hold on the righteous indignation response.

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I guess it all depends when you believe he started juicing. PED use in cycling exploded somewhere in the late ‘80’s to early ‘90’s. Since baseball wasn’t even close to their testing measures, I think it’s fair to say that roids and other PED’s occurred around the same time or sooner. Look at Canseco and how he performed which was around the same time period. So who is to say that Bonds wasn’t cheating at that time? Which would put all of his accomplishments under scrutiny.

Swamp Donkey said:

I thought he tried to make the unwed into mothers.

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I appreciate the effect to pin down his demographic, but I don’t think he had one.

Since65 said:

If you don't believe that Bonds had a Hall of Fame career prior to his alleged juicing I would question your baseball expertise.

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Who knows when the first needle hit that ass?

Really doesn't matter in my opinion. Taint is taint. Except for Barry's which is considerably larger due to the shrunken scrotum.

Since65 said:

If you don't believe that Bonds had a Hall of Fame career prior to his alleged juicing I would question your baseball expertise.

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Again, Bobby Bonds hit 300 w 25 hrs.... and actually swiped a bunch of bases too.... and yet he is not in the Hall of Fame.

I think Jr. Griffey was a contemporary who is useful for comparison. Like most players his performance started dropping off when he hit 30 or so and he was pretty much done by 35 to 37. before steroids if you guys would hang on a few more years maybe into the 40s serving as a pinch hitter or the occasional designated hitter, usually with a lot less power than they used to have.

If you look at Barry Bonds numbers at the Pirates, while nice, and--I guess-- try to imagine what it would have looked like as he dropped below .300 and started hitting 15 to 20 homers instead of 25 had he not gotten on the juice, it's pretty easy to imagine him not being anywhere near the Hall of Fame.

Bonds was a good but not really great player prior to the steroids and the 50 to 80 homerun seasons.

I'm actually hard-pressed to think of any player who suddenly started hitting twice the home runs when he hit 30 years old and kept increasing his performance after he hit 40.

BNAG8R said:

You’re right. Three guys, who all happened to get jacked up like race horses, all of a sudden through “baseball skills” shattered a decades old record that had barely been tested in decades. Not on, not two, but three of them....what a coincidence of “baseball skill”.

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That’s was one of the funnest season’s in memory. I’m all for steroid use if it’s makes the game more entertaining.