NBA Finals

MTGator

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A bunch of homeless? Let's see:

* Dwyane Wade, 12-time All-Star
* Chris Bosh, 11-time All-Star
* Kyrie Irving, five-time All-Star
* Kevin Love, five-time All-Star

At least one of those guys will be in the HOF before too long.

You said you watched a lot of Jordan. Then you undoubtedly remember the term "Michael Jordan and the Jordanaires." For the first several seasons of his career, he was surrounded by marginal talent. Many used less flattering terms. Stiffs is what many called the guys Jordan played alongside.

The rub on the Bulls was, you stop Jordan, you stop the Bulls. By 1997-98, the rub on the Bulls was still, you stop Jordan, you stop the Bulls.

By the year the Bulls finally broke through and beat the Pistons en route to their first title, Jordan was surrounded by zero All-Stars and only one player who'd ever been selected, Scottie Pippen, who had exactly ONE under his belt. Pippen's greatest notoriety at the time was a G7 migraine against the Pistons.

Finals appearances, titles, Series MVP:

James -- eight, three titles, three MVPs
Jordan -- six, six titles, six MVPs

No one dominated the Finals like Jordan.

Also, are you going to argue that if Jordan hadn't retired prematurely in 1993 and 1999 that the Bulls wouldn't have added two more titles to the shelf? I certainly wouldn't have betted against it.

Career stats:

James 27.2 pts, 50.4% FG, 7.4 reb, 7.2 assists
Jordan 30.1 pts, 49.7% FG, 6.2 reb, 5.3 assists. He shot nearly as well as James and he was operating from the 2 position.

* Jordan was 40 years when adding to those final stats. James turned 33 in December.

Defense:

James -- five-time All-Defensive first team
Jordan -- 1988 Defensive Player of the Year, nine-time All-Defensive first team, tied for most ever

The League:

The league that Jordan played in included Magic, Bird, Erving, Abdul-Jabbar, Isiah, Malone, Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Drexler, Stockton.

James' league? Kobe, Duncan, Nowitzki, Durant, Curry, Westbrook. A good league but definitely not on par with the NBA of 20-30 years ago.

Lebron is a great player, a guy capable of strapping a team on his back, although he wasn't as willing earlier in his career. And, yes, he is transcendent.

Jordan is the greatest player and competitor of all time, a 6-6, 220-pound shooting guard capable of taking over a game at will and a cold-blooded assassin. There has never been a more feared player with the ball in his hands and the game on the line.

Jordan wins.
Great post and well thought out. Regardless, I disagree. Look at the players Lebron had around him in the finals (outside of those his teams won) Love out/injured, Kyrie out/injured, Matthew Delevadova v Steph, DWade and Bosh on the downside at the end of his run in Miami. Pippen was named a top 50 player of all time. Rodman is in the HOF. Horace Grant all defensive team. Jordan’s supporting cast was far superior to Lebron’s in the finals. He can’t make guys hit wide open shots.
Regardless, it’s a good debate and you can make the case for either. I would take Lebron and his superior close out numbers. Despite what many think, Lebron is more clutch.
 

78

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Great post and well thought out. Regardless, I disagree. Look at the players Lebron had around him in the finals (outside of those his teams won) Love out/injured, Kyrie out/injured, Matthew Delevadova v Steph, DWade and Bosh on the downside at the end of his run in Miami. Pippen was named a top 50 player of all time. Rodman is in the HOF. Horace Grant all defensive team. Jordan’s supporting cast was far superior to Lebron’s in the finals. He can’t make guys hit wide open shots.
Regardless, it’s a good debate and you can make the case for either. I would take Lebron and his superior close out numbers. Despite what many think, Lebron is more clutch.
I'll admit it's become a more difficult argument as LeBron adds more Finals appearances. He's now made every Finals since 2010.

Two additional items about Jordan. His Finals teams never had to play a G7 and his G6 from 1998 was made all the more special due to Pippen being severely limited by an injured back in G5 and G6.

Michael willed that team to win that night as witnessed by the final three minutes in this video, during which he made key shots, including THE shot, and added two tremendous plays on defense.

 

Scott512

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Charles Barkley doesnt even have James in his all time top 5. I had James number 6 all time before the start of this season now I have to move him into the top five. But he will never catch Jordan.
 

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Charles Barkley doesnt even have James in his all time top 5. I had James number 6 all time before the start of this season now I have to move him into the top five. But he will never catch Jordan.
He probably has Bird ahead of him.

How I'd rate them now.

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Abdul-Jabbar
4) Magic
5) Bird

Very hard to rate Magic above Bird. Just slightly.
 

SeabeeGator

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I'll admit it's become a more difficult argument as LeBron adds more Finals appearances. He's now made every Finals since 2010.

Two additional items about Jordan. His Finals teams never had to play a G7 and his G6 from 1998 was made all the more special due to Pippen being severely limited by an injured back in G5 and G6.

Michael willed that team to win that night as witnessed by the final three minutes in this video, during which he made key shots, including THE shot, and added two tremendous plays on defense.


Jordan had some legendary games - Flu Game comes to mind. Don’t recall anything special named for Lebron outside of The Decision, an embarrassment.
 

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Jordan had some legendary games - Flu Game comes to mind. Don’t recall anything special named for Lebron outside of The Decision, an embarrassment.
I doubt LeBron will ever equal what Michael did to the Lakers in G2 of the '91 Finals.

He elevates to dunk and in midair switches hands for the left-handed layup. I remember watching this with my jaw dropped. The hang time alone was ridiculous.

 

Marine1

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MJ is the GOAT but Lebron has closed the gap considerably and far more than many are willing to admit.

But really its an argument that can be cut 2 ways. Best leader v. Best player. As players the gap is extremely close. Jordan still has the edge but Lebron is close and you can add Wilt, Magic, Kareem and Bird...all of which were absolutely dominate players. As leaders Magic and Bird are very close to MJ if not on par.

If the championship factor is to be considered you must account that the Bulls really had no one team on their level throughout their run. An argument can be strongly made that Magic would have 7-8 rings instead of 5 were it not for another super team in Boston. Same in reverse for Bird. He might have 6-8 instead of 3 if not for Magic and the Lakers. MJ beat an older Lakers team on the downside, Portland, Jazz, Suns, etc......these were good but not super teams. Personally I do not believe the best Bulls team could have beat the best Lakers team or best Celtics team of the 80’s.

I’ve never seen anyone better than Michael but the top 10 are so freaking good I prefer to just admire what they all brought to the game.
 

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MJ is the GOAT but Lebron has closed the gap considerably and far more than many are willing to admit.

But really its an argument that can be cut 2 ways. Best leader v. Best player. As players the gap is extremely close. Jordan still has the edge but Lebron is close and you can add Wilt, Magic, Kareem and Bird...all of which were absolutely dominate players. As leaders Magic and Bird are very close to MJ if not on par.

If the championship factor is to be considered you must account that the Bulls really had no one team on their level throughout their run. An argument can be strongly made that Magic would have 7-8 rings instead of 5 were it not for another super team in Boston. Same in reverse for Bird. He might have 6-8 instead of 3 if not for Magic and the Lakers. MJ beat an older Lakers team on the downside, Portland, Jazz, Suns, etc......these were good but not super teams. Personally I do not believe the best Bulls team could have beat the best Lakers team or best Celtics team of the 80’s.

I’ve never seen anyone better than Michael but the top 10 are so freaking good I prefer to just admire what they all brought to the game.
As usual you've raised great points. The Pistons had to learn to overcome the Celtics before they became back-to-back champions. The Bulls had to do the same with the Pistons. The Knicks tried to claim the mantel from the Bulls and came up short.

I'd loved to see the Bulls match up with the '86 Celtics or esp '87 fast-breaking Showtime Lakers. I suspect the Lakers with a younger Kareem would have given them fits, but I think the '87 unit was their best. The Bulls would have had no answer for the younger Kareem's moves in the paint. The skyhook was indefensible.

What many overlook is the tremendous team defense Chicago played, esp during the initial threepeat behind the three Dobermans -- Jordan, Pippen and Grant. The three were so long and quick that they eliminated the passing lanes.
 

Marine1

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As usual you've raised great points. The Pistons had to learn to overcome the Celtics before they became back-to-back champions. The Bulls had to do the same with the Pistons. The Knicks tried to claim the mantel from the Bulls and came up short.

I'd loved to see the Bulls match up with the '86 Celtics or esp '87 fast-breaking Showtime Lakers. I suspect the Lakers with a younger Kareem would have given them fits, but I think the '87 unit was their best. The Bulls would have had no answer for the younger Kareem's moves in the paint. The skyhook was indefensible.

What many overlook is the tremendous team defense Chicago played, esp during the initial threepeat behind the three Dobermans -- Jordan, Pippen and Grant. The three were so long and quick that they eliminated the passing lanes.


They were very, very good. But I’ve always said if you placed the 90’s Bulls in the 80’s the Bulls, Lakers and Celtics would have 3 rings each...with 1 going to the 82-83 76ers.

That’s how good they all were. All had a team-first orientation and a unique combination of superstars and role players.
 

MTGator

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I doubt LeBron will ever equal what Michael did to the Lakers in G2 of the '91 Finals.

He elevates to dunk and in midair switches hands for the left-handed layup. I remember watching this with my jaw dropped. The hang time alone was ridiculous.


One of the greatest single shots of all time. I remember the next day trying to do the same (much further below the basket of course). But as a counter to your point, a great game 2 shot, I would give you this, Game 7.
 

MTGator

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Jordan had some legendary games - Flu Game comes to mind. Don’t recall anything special named for Lebron outside of The Decision, an embarrassment.
“The Decision” was dreadful. I imagine if he had to do it over again he might do it differently, but maybe not. It’s puzzling how much hate Lebron receives (not saying you Seabee) given what he does for his community, has never been in trouble, is a family man and true role model. I’m sure it has to do more with the nonstop coverage and media love of Lebron ever since high school but that isn’t his fault. Nonetheless, a significant number of people seem to try to tear him down than just admire what he has accomplished on and off the court.
 

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One of the greatest single shots of all time. I remember the next day trying to do the same (much further below the basket of course). But as a counter to your point, a great game 2 shot, I would give you this, Game 7.
Tremendous hustle play.
 

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“The Decision” was dreadful. I imagine if he had to do it over again he might do it differently, but maybe not. It’s puzzling how much hate Lebron receives (not saying you Seabee) given what he does for his community, has never been in trouble, is a family man and true role model. I’m sure it has to do more with the nonstop coverage and media love of Lebron ever since high school but that isn’t his fault. Nonetheless, a significant number of people seem to try to tear him down than just admire what he has accomplished on and off the court.
The Decision was in fact a bad decision. It made him appear self-absorbed. You're right. He never really recovered in the public eye in spite of all the good he has done.
 

Marine1

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“The Decision” was dreadful. I imagine if he had to do it over again he might do it differently, but maybe not. It’s puzzling how much hate Lebron receives (not saying you Seabee) given what he does for his community, has never been in trouble, is a family man and true role model. I’m sure it has to do more with the nonstop coverage and media love of Lebron ever since high school but that isn’t his fault. Nonetheless, a significant number of people seem to try to tear him down than just admire what he has accomplished on and off the court.

Until Lebron came to Miami I had many of the same feelings towards him. But once he got to South Florida you could quickly see how committed he was to the community. He gives greatly of his time and treasure and is a great example of a committed father.

I went to a lot of Heat games and I picked up on how after nearly every game he sought out a young player on the opposing team and hugged them and literally encouraged them for several minutes. He is revered by many of the young players in the league. I saw he did the same with Jayson Tatum last night and Tatum spoke about it during the post game interviews. Lebron is just a really good dude. He’s lived in a fishbowl since high school. Sometimes he comes off the wrong way and he was set up by ESPN with The Decision. But in the end he is a great role model.
 

MTGator

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Until Lebron came to Miami I had many of the same feelings towards him. But once he got to South Florida you could quickly see how committed he was to the community. He gives greatly of his time and treasure and is a great example of a committed father.

I went to a lot of Heat games and I picked up on how after nearly every game he sought out a young player on the opposing team and hugged them and literally encouraged them for several minutes. He is revered by many of the young players in the league. I saw he did the same with Jayson Tatum last night and Tatum spoke about it during the post game interviews. Lebron is just a really good dude. He’s lived in a fishbowl since high school. Sometimes he comes off the wrong way and he was set up by ESPN with The Decision. But in the end he is a great role model.
Not sure if it is true but I’ve heard it a couple of times on different outlets, on the court he will tell opposing players where they are supposed to be on both ends of the court according to the play or D they run and also tell them what they could have done to run the play/D correctly. He prides himself on knowing the game and helping out other guys who are breaking into the NBA. The guys who don’t play well with him tend to be the selfish “me” guys. Even JR Smith swallowed his ego and resurrected his career due to Lebron’s help and faith in him. Granted, he couldn’t hit a shot until last night’s second half but Lebron helped him make a lot of $.
 

SeabeeGator

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“The Decision” was dreadful. I imagine if he had to do it over again he might do it differently, but maybe not. It’s puzzling how much hate Lebron receives (not saying you Seabee) given what he does for his community, has never been in trouble, is a family man and true role model. I’m sure it has to do more with the nonstop coverage and media love of Lebron ever since high school but that isn’t his fault. Nonetheless, a significant number of people seem to try to tear him down than just admire what he has accomplished on and off the court.
I would be surprised if most people’s dislike of the man went far beyond the court. The Decision was a display of poor character but doesn’t preclude growth from that. He’s also very active on some issues I don’t necessarily agree with but uses his celebrity to try and influence the emotions of a debate - something I do not like. That said, he’s not the only one and he does do a lot of great things for the community he lives in. I’d say on a professional level that he’s one of the greatest basketball players ever but not Jordan great. On a personal level - I’m ambivalent as he does a lot of good but it has to be balanced with some of the other things he does.
 

T REX

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“The Decision” was dreadful. I imagine if he had to do it over again he might do it differently, but maybe not. It’s puzzling how much hate Lebron receives (not saying you Seabee) given what he does for his community, has never been in trouble, is a family man and true role model. I’m sure it has to do more with the nonstop coverage and media love of Lebron ever since high school but that isn’t his fault. Nonetheless, a significant number of people seem to try to tear him down than just admire what he has accomplished on and off the court.

IMHO, everybody is fine. And think Lebron is an all-time great. The second you try to cram GOAT down anyone's throat you are going to get push back. It will happen every time. So, yeah, let's enjoy the non-GOAT and leave it at that.
 

Since65

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I'll admit it's become a more difficult argument as LeBron adds more Finals appearances. He's now made every Finals since 2010.

Obviously the Eastern Conference has been very kind to Lebron. I don't diminish what James has accomplished over his career but I am curious as to how many times Cleveland (and the Heat while he was there) has squared off with a "really good team" in the playoffs? It seems that the overall quality of opponents in the East is far less than teams out West.

Same question related to individual players that James played against. Any guys that were perennial All Stars that could be considered any kind of threat to him? Maybe a younger Paul Pierce or Garnett? Paul George...don't think so?

Even though the Celtics might have been favored in this series I don't see their lineup being measurably better than the Cavaliers and when you add in Lebron it doesn't seem like a big upset to me. My perception is that the West has been a significantly better side of the NBA for several years. I don't follow that closely so am open to being corrected.
 

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Obviously the Eastern Conference has been very kind to Lebron. I don't diminish what James has accomplished over his career but I am curious as to how many times Cleveland (and the Heat while he was there) has squared off with a "really good team" in the playoffs? It seems that the overall quality of opponents in the East is far less than teams out West.

Same question related to individual players that James played against. Any guys that were perennial All Stars that could be considered any kind of threat to him? Maybe a younger Paul Pierce or Garnett? Paul George...don't think so?

Even though the Celtics might have been favored in this series I don't see their lineup being measurably better than the Cavaliers and when you add in Lebron it doesn't seem like a big upset to me. My perception is that the West has been a significantly better side of the NBA for several years. I don't follow that closely so am open to being corrected.
Don't forget Boston was without two of its best players, Irving and Hayward, due to injury.
 

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