Ali vs. Liston II: Was the fix in?

[Marine1]

Ali had 3 skills that had tremendous psychological effect on his opponents....

(1) His ability to evade and slip punches

(2) His ability to absorb punches when he did get nailed and/or his gamesmanship that he wasn’t hurt when he actually was

(3) His jab

If you’ve ever boxed you know there is a frustration that borders on outright embarrassment if you can’t hit your opponent. Same thing with getting hit repeatedly with a hard jab. It disrupts your timing and saps your confidence. You can’t find rhythm. Ali mastered these. And when he did get nailed his ability to absorb and withstand punishment was legendary.

 

[Marine1]

As in all sports matchups are everything. Foreman destroyed Norton. Ali destroyed Foreman. Norton beat Ali once and gave him a handful in the other fights.

What an era for heavyweight boxing though: Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Quarry, Bonavena, Holmes et al. And everyone fought everyone...multiple times...no evading.

 

[78]

As in all sports matchups are everything. Foreman destroyed Norton. Ali destroyed Foreman. Norton beat Ali once and gave him a handful in the other fights.

What an era for heavyweight boxing though: Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Quarry, Bonavena, Holmes et al. And everyone fought everyone...multiple times...no evading.

There really was no one to challenge him until Frazier. It's interesting because going into that initial fight Frazier was built up as the hard-working good kid from Philly and Ali was framed as the draft-dodging, Black Muslim villain.

Ali's political stance was a real divider and it made him a groundbreaker as well.

No other athlete in my lifetime has had as compelling of a background, good or bad.

 

[Theologator]

Down goes Frazier was actually a Frazier-Foreman fight. I used the term loosely.

The first Ali-Frazier was the worst physical beating of Ali's career, but they both came away battered and bruised. You only saw snippets in that video. It went the distance.

The thing you have to know about Ali was how slippery he was with the jab. I think you alluded to it earlier in the thread. You knew when Frazier landed a punch. It was more like a roundhouse. Ali inflicted cumulative damage.

He was unusually flat-footed in that fight. Maybe Frazier’s constant presentation of a target & taunts tempted Ali to be more toe to toe. Maybe that was a function of him being out of boxing awhile.

I read his autobiography The Greatest in its first edition back in the late 70’s. (It was updated later, maybe more than once.) He described hitting Frazier as hitting a rock and, to that point, they had tried to spend some time outside the ring because of the respect inside. But they found they were very different and really didn’t like each other.

That softened later.

 

[Theologator]

Similar contrast of styles as Ali-Liston and Ali-Frazier. One of my all-time favorite fights.

 

[InstiGATOR1]

Liston was dominating in that era and along comes this kid he saw as a loudmouth punk. Then he realized he can’t lay a glove on him and could not defend against Ali’s speed and jab. It was a real punch and a real knockdown...but Liston knew at that point he could not win.

I have wondered about Liston's desire to get back going too although after seeing the fight for the first time in decades, he really does look hurt to me. That aside I wanted to comment on your reasoning.

I don't think the loud mouth bothered him as much as the style. Here is this kid fighting with his hands down and Liston can not get a glove on him. There have been brash boxers throughout history. Heck President Trump pardoned on just this past week. Clay (later Ali) was the first to come along and ignore all the boxing training, ie keep your gloves up etc and just out quick other heavy weights and defy them to hit him. That is the part I wonder about frustrating Liston.

 

[Marine1]

I have wondered about Liston's desire to get back going too although after seeing the fight for the first time in decades, he really does look hurt to me. That aside I wanted to comment on your reasoning.

I don't think the loud mouth bothered him as much as the style. Here is this kid fighting with his hands down and Liston can not get a glove on him. There have been brash boxers throughout history. Heck President Trump pardoned on just this past week. Clay (later Ali) was the first to come along and ignore all the boxing training, ie keep your gloves up etc and just out quick other heavy weights and defy them to hit him. That is the part I wonder about frustrating Liston.

Completely agree.

 

[Okeechobee Joe]

Liston was old and past his prime when he fought Clay (Ali). Liston hadn't been tested in a long time when he fought Clay. He knocked out the reigning heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in the first round and knocked Patterson out in the first round again in their re-match.

In the first Liston - Clay ( I use the surname Clay because that was what he was known by at the time of the Liston fights) fight in Miami Beach Liston had gone 6 rounds with the youthful Clay. Liston had taken some shots from Clay and he was tired. He remained seated in his corner and did not come out for the 7th round. By the time of the rematch in Lewiston, Maine Liston knew he was done, over-the-hill. As I remember, it there was a delay in staging the Lewiston fight. If I remember correctly, I think the fight was postponed because Clay had to have surgery for appendicitis. [ I checked this and it was not an appendicitis but rather a strangulated (incarcerated) hernia which required surgery and delayed the fight by six months] I will have to check that. By the time of the Lewiston fight I don't think Liston's heart was in it anymore. I think Liston had a few lackluster fights after the fiasco in Lewiston.

Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) was the greatest heavyweight boxer in my opinion and I'm certainly no expert in boxing, but that is just my observation from watching a lot of boxing matches on television. I would have liked to have seen Sonny Liston in his prime take on Mohammed Ali. I am not saying that Liston the plodding brawler would have won, but who knows? Liston had a powerful punch and once he had tagged you he smelled blood and moved relentlessly in for the kill.

I remember listening to the Sonny Liston - Cassius Clay fight held in Miami Beach on the radio. It was one of the most exciting sporting events I ever listened to. I was for Sonny Liston all the way. I didn't like the loud-mouth braggart Cassius Clay. I, and most of the boxing world, was stunned when Liston didn't come out for the seventh round and threw in the towel. The next morning the news reports from Miami television stations was all about the great upset of Cassius Clay. He was the new hero and America was taken with him. It seemed like the passing of the bar to a new generation. Then came more controversy and subsequent events unfolded.

 

[Theologator]

I have wondered about Liston's desire to get back going too although after seeing the fight for the first time in decades, he really does look hurt to me. That aside I wanted to comment on your reasoning.

I don't think the loud mouth bothered him as much as the style. Here is this kid fighting with his hands down and Liston can not get a glove on him. There have been brash boxers throughout history. Heck President Trump pardoned on just this past week. Clay (later Ali) was the first to come along and ignore all the boxing training, ie keep your gloves up etc and just out quick other heavy weights and defy them to hit him. That is the part I wonder about frustrating Liston.

I agree with all of that and will add that he came into that fight with a very hard-lived 34-ish years. That would feed the frustration as he was likely a half step slower, which played right into Ali’s style.

 

[Marine1]

Liston was old and past his prime when he fought Clay (Ali). Liston hadn't been tested in a long time when he fought Clay. He knocked out the reigning heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in the first round and knocked Patterson out in the first round again in their re-match.

In the first Liston - Clay ( I use the surname Clay because that was what he was known by at the time of the Liston fights) fight in Miami Beach Liston had gone 6 rounds with the youthful Clay. Liston had taken some shots from Clay and he was tired. He remained seated in his corner and did not come out for the 7th round. By the time of the rematch in Lewiston, Maine Liston knew he was done, over-the-hill. As I remember, it there was a delay in staging the Lewiston fight. If I remember correctly, I think the fight was postponed because Clay had to have surgery for appendicitis. I will have to check that. By the time of the Lewiston fight I don't think Liston's heart was in it anymore. I think Liston had a few lackluster fights after the fiasco in Lewiston.

Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) was the greatest heavyweight boxer in my opinion and I'm certainly no expert in boxing, but that is just my observation from watching a lot of boxing matches on television. I would have liked to have seen Sonny Liston in his prime take on Mohammed Ali. I am not saying that Liston the plodding brawler would have won, but who knows? Liston had a powerful punch and once he had tagged you he smelled blood and moved relentlessly in for the kill.

I remember listening to the Sonny Liston - Cassius Clay fight held in Miami Beach on the radio. It was one of the most exciting sporting events I ever listened to. I was for Sonny Liston all the way. I didn't like the loud-mouth braggart Cassius Clay. I, and most of the boxing world, was stunned when Liston didn't come out for the seventh round and threw in the towel. The next morning the news reports from Miami television stations was all about the great upset of Cassius Clay. He was the new hero and America was taken with him. It seemed like the passing of the bar to a new generation. Then came more controversy and subsequent events unfolded.

Don’t forget also that Angelo Dundee helped win that fight. Ointment of some sort got in Ali’s eyes during a round and he was not only blinded but the stinging was unbearable to the point he wanted to stop fighting. Dundee took a razor and cut his gloves and pushed him back out there and soon thereafter the ref had to send Ali to his corner to fix the glove. That gave him the time he needed to clear his eyes. Dundee was one of the best ever cornermen.

 

[FireFoley]

"His Mama named him Clay, I'm gonna call him Clay"
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c9LmIxsOJFo" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Marine1]

Liston was old and past his prime when he fought Clay (Ali). Liston hadn't been tested in a long time when he fought Clay. He knocked out the reigning heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in the first round and knocked Patterson out in the first round again in their re-match.

In the first Liston - Clay ( I use the surname Clay because that was what he was known by at the time of the Liston fights) fight in Miami Beach Liston had gone 6 rounds with the youthful Clay. Liston had taken some shots from Clay and he was tired. He remained seated in his corner and did not come out for the 7th round. By the time of the rematch in Lewiston, Maine Liston knew he was done, over-the-hill. As I remember, it there was a delay in staging the Lewiston fight. If I remember correctly, I think the fight was postponed because Clay had to have surgery for appendicitis. [ I checked this and it was not an appendicitis but rather a strangulated (incarcerated) hernia which required surgery and delayed the fight by six months] I will have to check that. By the time of the Lewiston fight I don't think Liston's heart was in it anymore. I think Liston had a few lackluster fights after the fiasco in Lewiston.

Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali) was the greatest heavyweight boxer in my opinion and I'm certainly no expert in boxing, but that is just my observation from watching a lot of boxing matches on television. I would have liked to have seen Sonny Liston in his prime take on Mohammed Ali. I am not saying that Liston the plodding brawler would have won, but who knows? Liston had a powerful punch and once he had tagged you he smelled blood and moved relentlessly in for the kill.

I remember listening to the Sonny Liston - Cassius Clay fight held in Miami Beach on the radio. It was one of the most exciting sporting events I ever listened to. I was for Sonny Liston all the way. I didn't like the loud-mouth braggart Cassius Clay. I, and most of the boxing world, was stunned when Liston didn't come out for the seventh round and threw in the towel. The next morning the news reports from Miami television stations was all about the great upset of Cassius Clay. He was the new hero and America was taken with him. It seemed like the passing of the bar to a new generation. Then came more controversy and subsequent events unfolded.

Liston barely trained for the first fight. He was convinced he would destroy Clay. Instead he got banged up fairly bad. On top of that the mob (who controlled him) took most of his purse. Liston trained like a beast for the rematch and some thought he was in the best condition of his career. He wanted that title back. Then Clay had to have a hernia operation and the fight was delayed 6 months. Liston lost his drive and barely trained after that. He was woefully out of shape by fight night. Clay would have humiliated him had that fight continued.

Bully types do not handle adversity well. Liston quit on his stool at the start of the 7th round in the first fight rather than get inevitably knocked out later on. 2nd fight he did not have the will to fight. Duran took it to Sugar Ray in their first fight and won the fight. 2nd fight Leonard not only would not go toe to toe but he stayed away, kept distance and taunted him. Duran quit rather than suffer the humiliation of getting beat in the ring.

 

[Marine1]

Similar contrast of styles as Ali-Liston and Ali-Frazier. One of my all-time favorite fights.

Loved this fight. One of my all time favorites.

 

[gardnerwebbgator]

Draft dodging Muslim POS. Most of his big 'wins' were fixed. I would have loved to have seen him in his prime against Tyson in his....he might have lasted one minute shuffling away from Tyson like the pussy he was. It would have been something like this....

 

[Marine1]

Another great heavyweight fight from that era was Lyle-Foreman. It was a great era with many contenders and nobody ducked fights. i also like the welterweights through super middleweights back then you had Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Suger Ray, Benitez, Cuevas, Arguello, Pryor....it was a great time for fight fans with some legendary matches. The era was filled with unique characters.

 

[78]

Here you go, Marine1.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

Similar contrast of styles as Ali-Liston and Ali-Frazier. One of my all-time favorite fights.

That was an incredible fight! Back when boxing was actually good.

 

[Marine1]

Here you go, Marine1.

Love it!

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

Draft dodging Muslim POS. Most of his big 'wins' were fixed. I would have loved to have seen him in his prime against Tyson in his....he might have lasted one minute shuffling away from Tyson like the pussy he was. It would have been something like this....

Tell us how you really feel GW.

 

[78]

Love it!

At 0:24 he is just annihiliating Frazier with punches.