Ali vs. Liston II: Was the fix in?

[Marine1]

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

Another great heavyweight fight from that era was Lyle-Foreman. It was a great era with many contenders and nobody ducked fights. i also like the welterweights through super middleweights back then you had Hagler, Hearns, Duran, Suger Ray, Benitez, Cuevas, Arguello, Pryor....it was a great time for fight fans with some legendary matches. The era was filled with unique characters.

If I remember correctly, the Pryor/Arguello fight was a very entertaining slug fest.

 

[78]

Lyle was a badass.

 

[Marine1]

If I remember correctly, the Pryor/Arguello fight was a very entertaining slug fest.

It was another wild one. I didn’t think Pryor could win but man he put on a show.

 

[SeabeeGator]

No fan of Ali at all. I don’t believe for one minute that he was a real conscientious objector. He used that well intentioned exception to keep his career going instead of serving his country. Should have never overturned his conviction at the Supreme Court. His defense was “I ain’t got no quarrel with Vietnam”. You know what? Most didn’t but the country did and patriotic Americans took up arms. Biggest difference between him and most was that he was famous. He was a harbinger of things to come in future (especially the current) generations: self centered POS who refuses to see beyond himself. The hero worship of Ali is infuriating, even if he was the greatest pugilist ever.

 

[78]

No fan of Ali at all. I don’t believe for one minute that he was a real conscientious objector. He used that well intentioned exception to keep his career going instead of serving his country. Should have never overturned his conviction at the Supreme Court. His defense was “I ain’t got no quarrel with Vietnam”. You know what? Most didn’t but the country did and patriotic Americans took up arms. Biggest difference between him and most was that he was famous. He was a harbinger of things to come in future (especially the current) generations: self centered POS who refuses to see beyond himself. The hero worship of Ali is infuriating, even if he was the greatest pugilist ever.

Irony of ironies, Ali cited his non-violent faith as a Muslim for his refusal to be inducted in the military. This came a little more than a month after he knocked out Zora Folley in the seventh round.

 

[SeabeeGator]

Irony of ironies, Ali cited his non-violent faith as a Muslim for his refusal to be inducted in the military. This came a little more than a month after he knocked out Zora Folley in the seventh round.

Precisely. He was a lying POS then. In true Hollywood fashion, they turned his unpatriotic ass into a hero. I’m sure thousands of folks who died there also had no quarrel with some small, SE Asian country that they likely never heard of. I’m reading “Deriliction of Duty”, a book by HR McMaster that uses recently declassified material to explain what failures led us to that war and inevitable loss. Interesting read but still doesn’t excuse his BS.

 

[78]

Precisely. He was a lying POS then. In true Hollywood fashion, they turned his unpatriotic ass into a hero. I’m sure thousands of folks who died there also had no quarrel with some small, SE Asian country that they likely never heard of. I’m reading “Deriliction of Duty”, a book by HR McMaster that uses recently declassified material to explain what failures led us to that war and inevitable loss. Interesting read but still doesn’t excuse his BS.

The Supreme Court ruling lifting the ban was based on a technicality. It ruled the government, specifically an appeals board, had failed to specify why his application for CO was denied.

Ali: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. They never called me n*gger."

 

[crosscreekcooter]

Here's Kenny Norton at 35, fighting the 24 year old Great White Hope, Gerry Cooney. This fight had a brutal end. Cooney was 24-0, winning most of his fights by early knockout. He had a devastating hook. Most of his wins were against punching bags although in that list of wins was Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle, but the early knockouts did little to prepare him for a 13 round loss (TKO) to the Eastern Assassin Larry Holmes.

 

[Marine1]

No fan of Ali at all. I don’t believe for one minute that he was a real conscientious objector. He used that well intentioned exception to keep his career going instead of serving his country. Should have never overturned his conviction at the Supreme Court. His defense was “I ain’t got no quarrel with Vietnam”. You know what? Most didn’t but the country did and patriotic Americans took up arms. Biggest difference between him and most was that he was famous. He was a harbinger of things to come in future (especially the current) generations: self centered POS who refuses to see beyond himself. The hero worship of Ali is infuriating, even if he was the greatest pugilist ever.

I believe all able-bodied men should fight when called...in fact, I believe they should volunteer rather than just be drafted. But I will say that it did not further his career. He lost the best 3 1/2 years of his career and millions of dollars. He was going to to go to jail if that is what it took. He did not run away. That said I dont believe there is any reason a man does not fight other than fear. I voted for the President but I do believe he pvssied out as well. His bone spurs should infuriate us as well. Nobody gets a pass for turning their back.

 

[Marine1]

Here's Kenny Norton at 35, fighting the 24 year old Great White Hope, Gerry Cooney. This fight had a brutal end. Cooney was 24-0, winning most of his fights by early knockout. He had a devastating hook. Most of his wins were against punching bags although in that list of wins was Jimmy Young and Ron Lyle, but the early knockouts did little to prepare him for a 13 round loss (TKO) to the Eastern Assassin Larry Holmes.

God I remember all these fight like it was yesterday. Lots of memories.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

It was another wild one. I didn’t think Pryor could win but man he put on a show.

You may have heard this already. Pryor’s trainer/cornerman was Panama Lewis, who was mired in that controversy involving a fighter of his (Luis Resto) having padding removed from the gloves and hardened plaster in his hand wraps against Billy Collins Suffice to say, Collins was beaten senseless, the scheme was discovered right after the fight and Resto served prison time. Resto claimed Panama was the one who removed the padding. Panama was the cornerman for Aaron Pryor in the Arguello fight. Before the 14th round, Panama was caught on mic telling one of his assistants to give him a different bottle of water, “the one I mixed”. Pryor came out like lightning and stopped Argüello. The speculation is that the “water” Panama Lewis gave to his fighter Aaron Pryor was loaded with amphetimines. If you haven’t read about it Google it. It’s an interesting read.

 

[Marine1]

You may have heard this already. Pryor’s trainer/cornerman was Panama Lewis, who was mired in that controversy involving a fighter of his (Luis Resto) having padding removed from the gloves and hardened plaster in his hand wraps against Billy Collins Suffice to say, Collins was beaten senseless, the scheme was discovered right after the fight and Resto served prison time. Resto claimed Panama was the one who removed the padding. Panama was the cornerman for Aaron Pryor in the Arguello fight. Before the 14th round, Panama was caught on mic telling one of his assistants to give him a different bottle of water, “the one I mixed”. Pryor came out like lightning and stopped Argüello. The speculation is that the “water” Panama Lewis gave to his fighter Aaron Pryor was loaded with amphetimines. If you haven’t read about it Google it. It’s an interesting read.

Yes i do recall that. Panama Lewis and Pryor were both a little crazy.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

The Supreme Court ruling lifting the ban was based on a technicality. It ruled the government, specifically an appeals board, had failed to specify why his application for CO was denied.

Ali: "I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. They never called me n*gger."

Interestingly enough, according to Chuck Wepner, Ali was trying to convince Wepner to refer to him as a ni**er before their fight to make it appear as race war/black vs. white type deal. Wepner refused, smartly. Pretty pathetic for Ali to try and turn their fight into a racial spectacle, more so if he used lack of racial bias by the Viet Cong as his excuse for why he had no issue with them.

 

[BNAG8R]

Tell us how you really feel GW.

I’ve learned that while most of us have a “dial” that we can turn from 1 to 10, GWG Is a toggle switch, either 1 or 11.

 

[Gatorraid81]

Wasn't Liston supposed to be indebted to the mob, and didn't he die under suspicion circumstances? Seems like I remember this being mentioned about him on ESPN or HBO.

 

[crosscreekcooter]

I’ve learned that while most of us have a “dial” that we can turn from 1 to 10, GWG Is a toggle switch, either 1 or 11.

1 is broken, it's all 11 baby

 

[Marine1]

Wasn't Liston supposed to be indebted to the mob, and didn't he die under suspicion circumstances? Seems like I remember this being mentioned about him on ESPN or HBO.

It was alleged he was indebted at the end but the mob robbed him blind when he was making money.

 

[Gator-Don]

My last live fight was 1980 - Ali vs. Larry Holmes in the parking lot of Caesar's Palace. I was an Ali fan.
Holmes brutalized Ali for10 rounds. I felt that Holmes started laying back on him toward the end out of respect.

I was walking to the tables when Ali hit the canvas. TKO

$6,000,000.00 purse.

 

[Marine1]

My last live fight was 1980 - Ali vs. Larry Holmes in the parking lot of Caesar's Palace. I was an Ali fan.
Holmes brutalized Ali for10 rounds. I felt that Holmes started laying back on him toward the end out of respect.

I was walking to the tables when Ali hit the canvas. TKO

$6,000,000.00 purse.

6 million for Holmes.....8 million for Ali.

Ali never hit the canvas though. Angelo Dundee stopped the fight in the 10th rd. Holmes was damn near begging the ref to stop the fight as well.

I truly got fooled by Ali that fight. He was down to 217 for the first time in years and lots of reports being that he was as well conditioned as he had been in years. I was in Okinawa, Japan at the time and could only get radio updates of the fight. It was apparent by the end of the first round that Ali had nothing in the tank. The fight should probably not been sanctioned in retrospect. His former ring doctor Ferdinand Pacheco said the fight was a crime and everyone involved should have been arrested. He said all the signs of the Parkinson’s were evident by 1977.