Marine War Vet kills 12 in CA

Discussion in 'Politics' started by g8tr72, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. g8tr72

    g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.

    I think he meant to post "even acknowledge the liberal solution" is what is not entertaining him.

    I find that most liberals cannot coherently address logical questions that are raised on this "gun control" issue. I witnessed that from the liberal cowards in the Political Chat Box.
     
    • g8tr72

      g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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      Another enraged liberal, offended by someone exercising their freedoms.....

       
    • GatorAlways

      GatorAlways Well-Known Member

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      You all are so predictable.

      I didn’t say “ban gunz”. The Second Amendment exists and blood will be spilled in order for it to continue to exist. There’s no way to stop violence by gun from happening and it’s an unfortunate byproduct of a Second Amendement that guarantees the right to bear arms.

      But, it’s also true that the adults in the room can’t have a rational discussion about the root causes of this type of violence without both retreating into a corner. You know the greatest hits:

      “the NRA is evil”
      “Democrats want to take away guns”
      “Research is skewed”
      “mental health, yes, let’s do it but don’t fund it”

      You know what? The first step in fixing a problem is recognizing a problem exists (and there’s a problem).

      This country can’t even get to that step without tribal politics interfering.
       
      • g8tr72

        g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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        We've had NUMEROUS discussions on this hot topic in several threads.
         
      • g8tr72

        g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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      • 5-Star Finger

        5-Star Finger Apex predator of the political forum biome
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        Take a look in the mirror. It's the same thing every, single time.

        You don't have to say it. The megaphones on the left say it, and I've directly quoted some of them. Don't try to sit here and lie that you don't give your support to some of the people I quoted - because your posts eleswhere out you. And no, violence by gun is not a consequence of the 2nd amendment - it's a consequence of human depravity, illness, and cultural factors paired with a failure by outside forces to contain these three elements. See also Venezuela. Private ownership of firearms is completely prohibited and their firearm murder rate is over 8 times what it is here.

        At least you're right on the part of violence by gun being unavoidable; just like violence by car, chainsaw, machete and jumbo jet. You'll never stop all of it.

        No you can't, when there is one side that talks about this as a gun problem and the other side correctly understands it as a mental health/cultural problem. There's a side that's right and a side that is wrong. That's kind of how reality works though. If an individual can be confronted with logic and reason and refuse to respond to it because they give their feelings (fears, etc) more weight, than you can't have a discussion with that person. The middle ground is keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous people as often as possible. A solid majority of right leaning and an overwhelming majority of libertarian leaning people have been standing on this middle ground for years. Can you honestly say that this is the position held by groups like Everytown and the majority of the political class on the left? No. No, you can't. At least not with a shred of integrity.

        Literally no one denies that dangerous people having dangerous things is a problem. If you can find me someone who is championing this I'd love for you to provide a source. The key is how this is done.

        As for this case, a mental health professional interacted with this guy and determined he couldn't be involuntarily committed. Credit to the cops for calling in someone to look at him when they were concerned. California's Lanterman–Petris–Short Act appears to be the law in question which would have allowed the designated county clinician to order confinement for observation for 72 hours. There's no law that will protect society from violence from an individual that falls into that situation. You can't just suspend people's civil rights, even by emergency order, when you pass an in-person screening by someone trained for the evaluation.

        I'm ready to help anyone work towards ideas that protect society to the best of our ability without trampling rights. Can't wait for the left to join me.
         
        • g8tr72

          g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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          I regret that I have but one like to give to this amazing opinion.
           
          • GatorAlways

            GatorAlways Well-Known Member

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            I also think this is a important point, and one that is grounded in fact. And I appreciate the discussion.

            Do you also believe to be factual that there is a very strong contingent of firearm advocates that suggest that the solution to gun violence is more availability of firearms?

            It certainly follows that every time a mass shooting occurs, that there is this rush by many gun advocates that there should be more armed people, not less. For example, when any school shooting happens, it's "more guns on campus", "arm teachers" and the like.

            Additionally, there's a lack of trust and disgust among many when politicians and others offer up "thoughts and prayers" without any consideration given to examining the root cause and determining if there are better outcomes that can be developed through the use of training, education, counseling or other ideas.

            Finally, the use of Venezuela is in interesting one - doesn't seem to be a good comparison for the US.
             
          • g8r.tom

            g8r.tom Well-Known Member
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            :bsmeter:
             
          • g8r.tom

            g8r.tom Well-Known Member
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            What about the gays?
             
            • g8r.tom

              g8r.tom Well-Known Member
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              Its funny the libs that like to talk politics rarely come to the PF.
               
            • g8r.tom

              g8r.tom Well-Known Member
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              You say this same sh1t over and over. You offer nothing. Just criticisms.
               
            • g8r.tom

              g8r.tom Well-Known Member
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              The 'more guns' argument, is often in response to the ban guns or less guns argument.

              There is not a lack of trust to pols offering 'thoughts and prayers' to those of us that actually believe in thoughts and prayers. And this is now the argument on the left to drown out those that offer thoughts and prayers. It won't work.
               
            • gatorev12

              gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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              I don't see how mocking religious beliefs or sincere expressions of sympathy will really help achieve anything productive though. You can't decry this becoming an entrenched political issue when your side is behaving in such a manner. It facilitates *more* mistrust and disgust in response.
               
            • g8tr72

              g8tr72 Well-Known Member

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              Ah Liberal Tolerance.

              Where a heartfelt "My thoughts and prayers are with you" is way more insulting than a cold-hearted F-You.
               
              • 5-Star Finger

                5-Star Finger Apex predator of the political forum biome
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                By firearms advocates, I'm sure you're referring to the largest of its kind peer-reviewed meta-study funded by Obama's CDC, right? No? Huh. Mind you, they do their very best in the language of the report to obfuscate the findings

                "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). " - Page 15,16

                As criminals and crazies shooting at you would make you fall into the category of "crime victim" the studies that looked at this question found you were much less likely to be injured if you used a gun defensively. So, yes, the solution for non-criminals to a someone trying to do violence to them with a gun is being armed with a gun themselves when someone tries to kill them.

                I suppose you could try distracting them with an amusing limerick. Let me know how that works out.

                It logically follows that if a higher percentage of good people were armed a lower percentage of injuries from bad people with firearms would occur.

                You can read the whole thing here: https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1

                Right, because it throat-punched your thesis that permission to use guns creates violence with firearms. Or is it because you think the brown people are just savage by nature and not a good analogue for civilized white society?[/QUOTE]
                 
              • AugustaGator

                AugustaGator Junior Member
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              • diehardg8r

                diehardg8r Junior Member

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                The left never finds any solution appropriate unless they can attack gun owners, christians, the constitution or the president (as long as he is a republican). When Sandy Hook went down, they attacked the republican congress, the NRA and gun owners. Few laid blame with the idiots mother who thought buy him firearms and taking him shooting would be good therapy when she new he was unstable. It's a common theme every time. We had an assault weapons ban for year and it had ZERO effect.
                 
                • Politigator

                  Politigator L-boy's Cousin

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                  You've made the assumptions that the right to own a gun is absolute and can't be impeded under any circumstances. That isn't even the law now. It just becomes a question of what sort of regulations are reasonable and don't materially violate the spirit (as per recent interpretation) of the 2nd amendment.

                  The right to free speech is not absolute either. Restrictions and limits are often debated but they do exist.

                  Like I've said, I've seen research that find that a gun in a household causes more deaths than it saves. I've seen other studies that refute that. You can Google to find the studies. But the point is whichever study you believe, there is a trade off. Some lives are saved. Others are lost.

                  Let's debate what I say vs making stuff up, like the whole coward statement above, OK?

                  No I haven't been a victim of gun crime. I can give an example where a friend pulled out a gun to protect himself and the offenderster came back with a gun and pointed it on one of friends employees. But those are just anecdotes.

                  The implicit assumption you make is if people didn't have guns to defend themselves then millions would be killed by criminals. The problem is there is no evidence in other first world countries that this happens. Gun deaths per capita are drastically lower, and murders per capita is materially lower.



                  If most gun owners want private background checks, then where is the resistance coming from?


                  Well if you are advocating some sort of legal process where people who are truly seriously mentally ill are added to an otherwise robust database of others who are deemed a danger (via whatever agreed upon criteria including similar due process) that may be OK. I'm just very skeptical when I see gun advocates start talking about limiting other constitutional freedoms in order to keep their dozen hobby guns.

                  As to your final self aggrandizing statement, if you don't want people to respond just say so. Stating that you are impressed with your own arguments and beliefs is not in itself a particularly persuasive argument.
                   
                  • 5-Star Finger

                    5-Star Finger Apex predator of the political forum biome
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