Player Development Myth

soflagator

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Alagator;n88302 said:
Didn't mean to imply "you" hate Muschamp. I was purposely generalizing because so many do hate him they want to pile on at any chance, whether it's warranted or not. He's done plenty to make us dissatisfied with him without piling up extra garbage that isn't true.

I originally compiled all the stats on a scratch paper then when transferring them neglected to add Muschamps. But I did report how many he's had. Also provided a link to you can check'em out for yourself if you want. Just found it an intriguing counter to the general consensus around here that he sucks as a HC AND does not develop players and is costing them future NFL careers. Data suggest he's on par with the last three coaches in terms of putting players into the NFL.

Can't argue about the fun...Muschamp ball has NOT been fun to watch. Can't imagine it's been fun to play.

The point is if you fast-forward 3 or so seasons(assuming he was still here) that number would be substantially less. Blame it on recruiting, player development, or anything else. But the fact remains that we have become less talented across the board in each season he's been here(OL might be an exception) and that's largely because we've regressed from Elam to Gorman, Floyd for Cummings, Reed for Westbrook/Burton, etc.

That's just reality.
 

Alagator

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G 2;n88246 said:
The only thing this shows is that Muschamp does less with more NFL talent than Meyer.

Wouldn't argue that.
 

Alagator

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Gatoravatara;n88347 said:
You beat me to this. I am reminded me of the BB players (LeBron) who could go straight to the NBA right our of HS, but go to college. The fact that they went to college does not mean that the college coach is the reason why they are going to the NBA. A better metric would be how a player progresses after 4 years. JD is a good experiment. I dont think anybody can argue that he has not digressed.

OMG, are you serious? JD is the one you want to use to define the metric? Certainly stacking the odds against him by just picking a name out of the hat there...the one person who has been absolutely horrid.
 

Alagator

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Law98gator;n88342 said:
Pumpers gonna pump.

That's stupid, Law. Absolutely baseless. Go and look at my posts in all these threads. I absolutely want him fired. I once had hope, I hoped against hope, because Muschamp's success meant Gator success.

He has taken every little shred of hope I had left and used it to fuel the fire of the dumpster fire that is UF football. The point of this post was to point out how ridiculous fans can be. Someone suggests another lost opportunity under Muschamp is players lost career opportunities in the NFL; and everybody, licking their chops for more Muschamp blood begins to pile on. The fact is that is not true. He is on par with other coaches in preparing/developing the NFL caliber players for the NFL. If they have NFL talent, the NFL will discover it.
 

G 2

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Alagator;n88360 said:
OMG, are you serious? JD is the one you want to use to define the metric? Certainly stacking the odds against him by just picking a name out of the hat there...the one person who has been absolutely horrid.


I think every coach has a player like Driskel but the problem with Muschamp is he not only played him but kept him as the starter. Usually those type of players ride the bench,never to be seen from again.
 

Alagator

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soflagator;n88322 said:
The point is if you fast-forward 3 or so seasons(assuming he was still here) that number would be substantially less. Blame it on recruiting, player development, or anything else. But the fact remains that we have become less talented across the board in each season he's been here(OL might be an exception) and that's largely because we've regressed from Elam to Gorman, Floyd for Cummings, Reed for Westbrook/Burton, etc.

That's just reality.

That's not the point of this thread. And I agree with you btw. We have a talent gap right now. I also think we are seeing the results of Muschamp's first class. It was short on talent and was a small class, to boot. That is our senior (or redshirt junior) class right now. Hopefully this freshman and sophomore class will live up to it's expectations.
 

Alagator

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G 2;n88374 said:
I think every coach has a player like Driskel but the problem with Muschamp is he not only played him but kept him as the starter. Usually those type of players ride the bench,never to be seen from again.

I agree 100 percent!
 

Swamp Donkey

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Alagator;n88369 said:
That's stupid, Law. Absolutely baseless.

LOL-UMAD-BRO1gqf.jpg
 

HogtownGator

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Maybe I, the OP who brought this up, need to explain what I meant by "opportunity cost". I am talking about those crucial college years from about age 18 to age 22 when so much maturity, strength and conditioning, size, skills, and football knowledge might be developed. To miss out on being featured on prime time, to miss out on the thrill of winning championships, to never learn how to come-from-behind and overcome adversity, and to not learn how to function as a unit are "opportunity costs" of being on a dismal team.

Of course, college good players from bad teams also get opportunities at the next level. You seem to say Coach X had the same number of players drafted as Coach Y, therefore there was no "opportunity cost" to any of the players on the dismal team. Also, your count doesn't control for variables like salary, position, and draft round. If only one player loses out financially -- drafted at a lower salary than would have been possible -- that is another type of an opportunity cost.

I stand by my OP that there has been an opportunity cost to players who have played for WM. My point was about the players, not about WM. I feel bad for them.
 

Bernardo de la Paz

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I think it's pretty interesting that you only took the first 4 years from Meyer to get him to be lowest on the list. Those first couple of years probably have as much to do with the previous coach as they do with the current coach considering guys are here 3 to 5 years before they go to the NFL. The numbers will also have as much to do with recruiting as they do with player development. The sample size is just too small and there are too many variables to make a judgement on this.
 

Alagator

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HogtownGator;n88474 said:
Maybe I, the OP who brought this up, need to explain what I meant by "opportunity cost". I am talking about those crucial college years from about age 18 to age 22 when so much maturity, strength and conditioning, size, skills, and football knowledge might be developed. To miss out on being featured on prime time, to miss out on the thrill of winning championships, to never learn how to come-from-behind and overcome adversity, and to not learn how to function as a unit are "opportunity costs" of being on a dismal team.

Of course, college good players from bad teams also get opportunities at the next level. You seem to say Coach X had the same number of players drafted as Coach Y, therefore there was no "opportunity cost" to any of the players on the dismal team. Also, your count doesn't control for variables like salary, position, and draft round. If only one player loses out financially -- drafted at a lower salary than would have been possible -- that is another type of an opportunity cost.

I stand by my OP that there has been an opportunity cost to players who have played for WM. My point was about the players, not about WM. I feel bad for them.

Well, I thought about draft positions, etc. but that would have taken more time or energy that I had and frankly was willing to put into it. However, the page I linked has their draft positions, I believe.

However when you said:

But, if even one kid who chose Florida meets a career dead end because of lack of development, that, to me, is the worst offense of the Muschamp era.....Of course there is no way to know the answer, but who doesn’t think some kid has lost an NFL career because of this coach and this product on the field

Law's next line is:

[FONT=&quot]Yes, careers ruined. We usually have 6-10 kids that make the NFL every year.[/FONT]

And then we were off to the races.......... Which is why I started this thread. And to answer Law's assertion I listed the numbers of draftees for 15 or more years...

Lastly, I have to agree their college experience has sucked and it's certainly not what they signed up for when they became Gators.
 

Alagator

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Bernardo de la Paz;n88476 said:
I think it's pretty interesting that you only took the first 4 years from Meyer to get him to be lowest on the list.

:shake: WM will have only been here 4 years. It was a comparison of the first 4 years of each coach listed (3 for Zook) But you will notice I listed all 6 years of the UM era.

Those first couple of years probably have as much to do with the previous coach as they do with the current coach considering guys are here 3 to 5 years before they go to the NFL. The numbers will also have as much to do with recruiting as they do with player development. The sample size is just too small and there are too many variables to make a judgement on this.[/

That's the same number of years WM has had. Can't have it both ways. Either it's a fair sample size or its not.

Geeze guys. I am not defending WM. I WANT HIM GONE. HE IS SATAN'S SPAWN. THE DEVIL HIMSELF. FIRE HIS ASS. There reason enough to hate him without having to conjure up new reasons to hate him. Hate him for what he's guilty of. That's all I'm saying. Seems like you won't be satisfied until his blood is pooring in the streets. Mob mentality...
 

Bernardo de la Paz

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Alagator;n88664 said:
If the 4 year sample size is too small for UM then it's too small for WM. We can't have it both ways. Geeeze guys, I am not defending Muschamp here. I WANT HIM FIRED. HE DESERVES TO BE FIRED. HE SUCKS AS A HEAD COACH. HE IS THE DEVIL. LUCIFER. YOU NAME IT. I am only pointing out how ludicrous fan hatred can become. I say hate the guy for what he's guilty of, there's plenty of that. No reason to conjure up new reasons for hatred.

The sample size is too small to draw a conclusion based on the number of draft picks alone. Your posts make it sound like you believe it's definitive proof that WM is just as good at developing talent as Meyer and Spurrier. Your stat is not irrelevant, but it also doesn't tell the whole story.
 

Alagator

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Gatoravatara;n88489 said:
First of all, Muschamp is not reading this vitriol. Second, he deserves the vitriol. He is a highly paid dumb ass coach who stubbornly refused to change his failed philosophy, asking people about midlines and backing JD to the end, just because his ego. He deserves to be piled on. This is the place to do it. Our new coach, I'll be behind 100,000%, assuming Foley doesnt blow it again. Foley deserves some of the pile on as well. Those extensions were shady, and not required. It was his way of saying we are going to make it very expensive to fire Muschamp so deal with it. He will be here for a very long time. Muschamp did not deserve the extension by any objective standard, and the way Foley did that was very shady. It was his low point. Very, very shady.

Alrighty then. If we ever have an election for a Hate Will Muschamp club, I'm voting you for president and Law can be your VP. You have definitely been outspoken. I'll give you that.
 

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