Supreme Court weighs baker's refusal to make cake for gay couple

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gator Fever, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Gator Fever

    Gator Fever Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    17,920
    Oxbucks:
    $287
    Ratings:
    +4,261 / -66
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-baker/top-court-weighs-bakers-refusal-to-make-cake-for-gay-couple-idUSKBN1DZ0H7?utm_source=34553&utm_medium=partner

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday is set to hear arguments in a major case on whether certain businesses can refuse service to gay couples if they oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds in a dispute involving a conservative Christian baker in Colorado who declined to make a wedding cake for two men.

    The nine justices at 10 a.m. (1500 GMT) are due to hear an appeal brought by Jack Phillips, a baker who runs Masterpiece Cakeshop in the Denver suburb of Lakewood, of a state court ruling that his refusal violated a Colorado anti-discrimination law.

    In one of the biggest cases of the conservative-majority court’s nine-month term, the justices must decide whether the baker’s action was constitutionally protected, meaning he can avoid punishment under the Colorado law.

    Phillips contends that law violated his rights to freedom of speech and free exercise of religion under the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment. The Supreme Court arguments will focus on his free speech claim, based on the idea that creating a custom cake is a form of free expression.
    ----------------------------------

    Curious to see how this ruling goes. Probably a 5-4 special with Kennedy deciding it. My own view is its a specialized business and he should be able to refuse on religious grounds since that isn't a place of public accommodation like a restaurant or hotel etc. I think Colorado went too far with their law.
     
  2. Gator Fever

    Gator Fever Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    17,920
    Oxbucks:
    $287
    Ratings:
    +4,261 / -66
    https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/supreme-court-cake-gay-rights-same-sex-colorado

    A quick headline here: Colorado is having difficulties in defending how it applied its public accommodations law to the baker.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy told a lawyer for the state that tolerance is essential in a free society, but it’s important for tolerance to work in both directions. “It seems to me the state has been neither tolerant or respectful” of the baker’s views, he said.

    Justice Kennedy, a moderate conservative who has written major rulings in favor of gay rights, was widely believed to be the key vote in this case. His skepticism of Colorado's position is not good news for the state. Other conservatives justices also are asking tough questions of the state.
    ----------------------------------

    I think Kennedy will give away his stance more times than not so this could be telling but there is a chance its a curveball also.
     
  3. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,690
    Oxbucks:
    $221
    Ratings:
    +6,854 / -10
    I really hope they get this right.

    I've gone through this with you guys before. It boils down to what is a "public accommodation". Back in the day, it was hard for Black people to travel. They were blocked from restaurants, hotels, etc. In fact, one of the best selling books of its time was a travel guide for Blacks that listed places that would serve them.

    Originally, the Constitution only applied to the Federal government. "CONGRESS shall make no law etc." It did not apply to the States and certainly didn't apply to private citizens.

    That changed with the post Civil War Amendments. Many parts of the Constitution were incorporated by the 14th Amendment to apply against the States (a process that took years and years as bits and pieces were slowly incorporated, the most recent being the 2nd Amendment just a few years ago).

    When the Civil Rights Act was passed, that was the first time some of these restrictions were imposed against private citizens. Specifically with regard to private citizens offering "public accommodations". This covered restaurants, hotels, car rentals, movie theaters, grocery stores, barber shops, etc. There was resistance to this by libertarians who felt such laws infringed on freedom of association and shouldn't apply to privately owned businesses.

    Fast forward to today.

    Some things are clearly public accommodations. You can't deny a black person the right to purchase an airline ticket.

    But there is a fundamental concept of the law that your rights stop where my rights start.

    The First Amendment gives me freedom of speech. That means the government can't stop me from saying something I want to say. It ALSO means the government can't MAKE ME say something I don't want to say. This is not subject to dispute from a legal standpoint. This is the law.

    The issue is where does public accommodation stop and expression start?

    The baker isn't refusing to sell a cake to a gay customer. The gay customer is free to buy any pre-made cake in the bakery. If the gay customer is buying a wedding cake for his sister's (heterosexual) wedding, the baker is willing to make a sell the gay customer a heterosexual wedding cake.

    Let's say a couple of years later, the heterosexual sister wants to repay her brother's favor. So she (a hetrosexual) asks the baker to make a custom cake for a gay wedding. She can still buy any pre-made cake in the bakery. However, the baker refuses custom service because putting 2 grooms on top of a wedding cake is an expression he does not want to make because it does not comport with his religious beliefs. He doesn't want to make a statement endorsing something he views as a sin. The government is trying to FORCE him to make that statement.

    So you see, it is not the sexual preference of the customer that matters. It is the expression made by the cake.

    There is a line between public accommodation and compelled expression. The SCOTUS will have to draw that line somewhere.

    What if you're a company that rents reception halls? What if you're a church that rents a reception hall separate from the sanctuary? Should you be allowed to limit weddings in that space? Receptions in that space? Can the church say no Hindu weddings? No gay wedding receptions?

    How about the wedding photographer or videographer? Is he creating "art" or is is a public accommodation? Michael Moore makes documentaries. He's in the documentary film business. Can I force him to make a documentary film in support of the 2nd Amendment? Can I force an artist to make pro-Trump posters? Can Kinkos (showing my age here) refuse to make copies of a flyer for a Klan rally? Can an artist refuse to create a flyer for a Klan rally? Can a photographer refuse to photograph a Trump rally? A Klan rally? A gay wedding?

    Personally, if I were a baker, I would put 2 grooms on top if that's what the customer wanted.

    But I'm not going to use the power of government to force some other baker to do it against his will.

    BAKE THE CAKE CITIZEN!!! BAKE IT OR WE WILL SHUT YOU DOWN AND TAKE YOUR BUSINESS AND BANKRUPT YOU!

    That's what fascism looks like. No thanks. I'll stick with the First Amendment.


    Alex.
     
  4. itsgr82bag8r

    itsgr82bag8r Political Forum Fire Starter
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2014
    Messages:
    11,848
    Oxbucks:
    $257
    Ratings:
    +6,465 / -36
    BUY THE INSURANCE CITIZEN! BUY IT OR WE’LL ARREST YOU, FINE YOU & LOCK YOU UP!

    Funny how easily fascism slips into everyday life.....
     
  5. diehardg8r

    diehardg8r Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Messages:
    2,610
    Oxbucks:
    $268
    Ratings:
    +2,143 / -35
    So....here's a question. If I have a right to own a weapon and carry it concealed.....and if the USSC rules that this bakery has to make the cake for this "couple" does that mean the establishments must also allow me to carry my concealed weapon into their restaurant? Wouldn't that be discriminating?
     
  6. g8tr72

    g8tr72 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,517
    Oxbucks:
    $434
    Ratings:
    +3,268 / -12
    :burn2:
     
  7. Detroitgator

    Detroitgator General Factotum
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    9,635
    Oxbucks:
    $180
    Ratings:
    +6,731 / -9
    Not a good analogy. They can’t ban you from legally carrying. They can ask you to leave and if you don’t, you have a legal problem with trespass with a weapon.
     
  8. diehardg8r

    diehardg8r Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Messages:
    2,610
    Oxbucks:
    $268
    Ratings:
    +2,143 / -35
    How is that not discriminating? They are refusing to serve me are they not?
    They don't like the fact that I have a weapon ( that they can't even see BTW) so they tell me to leave.
     
  9. ChiefGator

    ChiefGator A Chief and a Gator, Master of the Ignore list!!!!

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    3,744
    Oxbucks:
    $303
    Ratings:
    +1,535 / -149
    Great analysis but I might add Mr. Market can be relied upon to both restrain such policies and to serve the market for say custom cakes. In fact you could buy a standard one or even a custom one and replace the decoration on the top.

    These suits and laws are more than they appear, they are actually an attempt to make some things that are not socially acceptable to be so, using the power of government.
     
  10. Windy City Gator

    Windy City Gator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    Messages:
    91
    Oxbucks:
    $58
    Ratings:
    +132 / -18
    I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV....but what is the big F-ing deal that two gay people want to get married and buy a custom cake??? What part of your religion and for that matter, please enlighten me, which religions discriminate against gay marriage? And more importantly WHY? Jeez people, if two people love each other and want to get married and think highly enough of you to make their special cake, why do you hate them so much that you will not do it. Is god buddha allah santa claus telling you that gay people are bad??? Like I said, please enlighten me why there is so much hate in this world/country and we are still marginalizing people? I believe in religious freedom....it is part of our constitution just like the 2nd amendment says that we have the right to form a militia (sarcasm in case you don't understand it). Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you hide behind god buddha allah santa claus, etc. Once again, not a lawyer, just a person who is soooooooo tired of all the hatred towards certain groups of people...not just gays, but blacks, certain religions, regions of the country, etc. Cant we all just get along???? Not a tough concept if you ask me.
     
  11. diehardg8r

    diehardg8r Junior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2014
    Messages:
    2,610
    Oxbucks:
    $268
    Ratings:
    +2,143 / -35
    If a couple came to you and wanted to purchase a pistol from you so they could kill themselves, would you sell to them?

    Answer that question before you comment another word please and I will make an attempt to explain to you why devout christians won't participate in gay marriage. Not that you will understand it, but I will try.
     
  12. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,690
    Oxbucks:
    $221
    Ratings:
    +6,854 / -10
    People in this country are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.

    One of those rights is the freedom of expression as set forth in the First Amendment. The right to say what you want AND the right to not say what you don't want. You also have the right to be hateful. The right to be wrong. In fact, you can be wrong as loudly and as long as you like. We don't make exceptions to the First Amendment because the speech in question is hateful or wrong or silly. It doesn't matter that the speech doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't have to make sense.

    One of the most common complaints heard by liberals is that they don't want religious people "shoving their beliefs down my throat".

    Isn't that precisely what these laws do? Shove your belief system down the throats of people who don't believe the same way you do?

    Look, I'm with you. I don't think God is going to get mad at a baker who puts two grooms on top of a cake for a customer. BUT IT IS NOT UP TO ME OR YOU TO FORCE OUR BELIEFS ON THE BAKER.

    Your post is full of rainbows and butterflies, Kumbaya and can't we all just get along. But what you propose is most certainly NOT getting along. It is forcing people to do things they don't want to do.

    Is it better for the gay couple to go to the baker or florist next door and vote with their wallets...or is it better to use the full force and power of the government to destroy people's lives and businesses because they don't want to put two grooms on top of a cake? You can think their beliefs are wacky all you want. That is your prerogative. You can choose not to patronize their establishment. That's the free market at work. But can you FORCE them to comply?

    Take a good long look in the mirror.

    Lots of Americans believe in things I don't believe in. Should I use the power of the government to force them to act the way I think they should act? What does that make me?

    BAKE THE CAKE, CITIZEN! OR BE DESTROYED. THE GOVERNMENT COMMANDS IT.




    Alex.
     
  13. g8tr72

    g8tr72 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    4,517
    Oxbucks:
    $434
    Ratings:
    +3,268 / -12
    While we are demanding answers to questions, I have a few......

    Why did the couple sue rather than simply taking their business elsewhere and posting a negative business review on some website?
    When someone doesn't agree with another person's religious beliefs or personal preferences, why is that labeled "hate?" Is "hate" an action, emotion, or a political affiliation?
    Other than not agreeing to the business transaction with the gay couple regarding the cake, were there any additional actions by the baker that indicated animosity or "hate?"
    And why can't we all just get along? Why are the people who demand tolerance of their views always the most intolerant of others' views?
    Precisely what is the specific definition our society is currently using for "religious freedom?"
     
  14. Gator Fever

    Gator Fever Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2014
    Messages:
    17,920
    Oxbucks:
    $287
    Ratings:
    +4,261 / -66
    I would lean to the baker winning this case but Kennedy can be unpredictable sometimes.

    What if Devil worshipers wanted the baker to make them a special cake? Should he be forced to if the state law required that? The refusal would be based on the behavior of the people requesting the cake and his beliefs.
     
  15. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,690
    Oxbucks:
    $221
    Ratings:
    +6,854 / -10
    I'll give you guys good analogies--

    The fundamental tenet of Islam is "There is no God but Allah and Mohamed is his Messenger".
    Can a Hindu customer force a Muslim baker to write on a cake "There is no God but Vishnu and Shiva and about a dozen more".
    The Muslim believes if he writes that, he will burn in Hell. Is this not protected by the First Amendment?

    Can Jerry Falwell go into a gay bakery and demand to have "Marriage is the union of one man and one woman only and any other union is an abomination before God" written on a cake?

    Can a neo-Nazi force a Jewish baker to bake a cake for Hitler's birthday with a couple of swastikas and maybe the gate to Auschwitz on it?

    Can a Klansman force a Black baker to bake a cake with a burning cross and a lynching scene on it?




    If the answer to ANY of these questions is no, then the answer to all of these must be no. The First Amendment is content-neutral.




    Alex.
     
  16. Windy City Gator

    Windy City Gator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    Messages:
    91
    Oxbucks:
    $58
    Ratings:
    +132 / -18
    First of all I HATE guns, so therefore I do not own a gun, hence I do not have a gun to sell. BUT, let's for argument's sake I DID have a gun....it is a legal gun or one of those illegal guns sold at shady gun shows (once again, sarcasm). OF COURSE, I WOULD SELL IT TO THEM. If there is no law against them buying a gun and they qualify under our extremely lax background checks (like there is no law against gays, blacks, southerners, republicans, democrats) from buying the gun. What they do with the gun is their business, even if they want to go shoot innocent kids at the local elementary school. (FYI< I believe in assisted suicide,....just don't be selfish and take out others with you, not that you can be prosecuted when you are dead).

    Now please explain to me why christians, muslims, north koreans, russians (hope you see the theme here) all hate gays so much.

    Looking forward to your response why devout christians feel it is still ok to discriminate against certain sects of people in the 21st century.....
     
  17. Windy City Gator

    Windy City Gator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2017
    Messages:
    91
    Oxbucks:
    $58
    Ratings:
    +132 / -18
    I think some are confusing free speech and hate speech (Swatzika, burning cross cake, etc). Those are forms of hate speech, and not always protected under the 1st amendment. But once again, not a lawyer, only playing one on TV. Just like libel and slander are not protected forms of speech. But good points....
     
  18. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,690
    Oxbucks:
    $221
    Ratings:
    +6,854 / -10
    What you did here was expose your prejudice against Christians; lumping them all together as gay haters. They're not, you know.

    Looking forward to your apology to the millions and millions of Christians who do not hate gays.

    Alex.
     
  19. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    5,690
    Oxbucks:
    $221
    Ratings:
    +6,854 / -10
    I am a lawyer and you're wrong. Legally, there is no such thing as hate speech and what you think of as hate speech is absolutely protected by the First Amendment.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...o-the-first-amendment/?utm_term=.0f3d7f0275d8

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...t-amendment/q9m4IqfQvbo24nnlnPor1O/story.html

    This is the problem with our education system. College graduates don't think the First Amendment applies to "hate speech".


    Alex.
     
  20. TheDouglas78

    TheDouglas78 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    8,572
    Oxbucks:
    $187
    Ratings:
    +3,871 / -28
    As a business they decided to not take a particular customers order, doesn't matter why. Case Closed.
     

Share This Page

Chat

Help

You don't have the necessary permissions to use the chat.

  1. There are currently no users chatting.
  • About Us

    Our community sprung up when the Gatorsports message board was shut down in the summer of 2014. We pride ourselves on offering Gator-biased, yet critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is the best Gator message board you will find.
  • Quick Navigation

  • Buy us a Zima!

    The management works very hard to make sure the community is running the best software, best designs, and all the other bells and whistles. Care to buy us a non-alcoholic Zima? We'd really appreciate it! Just click the "Donate" tab at the top of the page.