Foley's larger failure: Facilities or Butters?

[SeabeeGator]

Coaches are the larger short term problem, facilities are the larger long term problem. It takes years to get funding, design, and build competitive facilities and once they are complete, whoever we are trying to compete with has likely built something newer and better. Foley has a lot of short term success across all sports but the effects of his poor facilities master plan will be felt for years.

 

[5-Star Finger]

Be sure to vote in the sidebar and give your reasoning below.

Discuss.

Both. They are both his biggest failure - other than being born.

 

[78]

Both. They are both his biggest failure - other than being born.

Can we get police mugs of the parents?

 

[-THE DUDE-]

Hiring muscrap was the beginning of it all...facilities and butters just kept piling the crap on. It all started with the inexplicable hiring of “boom”

 

[5-Star Finger]

Can we get police mugs of the parents?

He wasn't born in the normal sense. He was created in some failed experiment by the science department. The eggheads unleashed this ungodly plague upon Gator Nation; of that you can be sure.

 

[GatorJB]

This is actually a very difficult question, but I'm going with facilities. Reason being is if we had great facilities and McElwain is here, Mr. Neon-teeth still gets fired and the next coach has more to work with as far as recruiting and he possibly has a more talented team. If we hired a good coach from the start, then we are in better overall shape, but facilities are still a problem that isn't an easy or quick fix.

There's no way to know for sure how many good players we didn't get simply because of facilities. Yes a good coach can do a lot with bad facilities, but bad coaches can still recruit with good facilities and leave a lot of talent for the next guy (i.e., Zook and Meyer). McElwain was a very lazy recruiter, but he may have been able to get away with that some if he had better facilities to work with.

 

[InstiGATOR1]

Foley's biggest mistake has been and continues to be thinking that it was all about him and the UAA and that UF would win regardless of the coach, facilities, ect because he and the UAA were the best around. This is in a great measure due to not understanding UF football, it is strengths and history.

UF football was defined by Ray Graves and Steve Spurrier as an exciting brand of offensive football with a stellar passing offense. UF football is also a product of the talent advantages, athletes who can run, in the state of Florida.

Due to his lack of understanding and apparent antipathy to all things Spurrier, Foley replaced Spurrier with DC with no vision of the UF football. When that did not work out Foley, probably with no real say in the hiring, made the $50 to $100 million mistake of taking 6 years of Meyer over another say 15 years of Spurrier. I can remember the smug around UF message boards saying of course Foley was so smart then because Meyer would be coaching at UF long after Spurrier retired. (Maybe if Foley understood, UF, its fans and its strengths in football, he could have lobbied Machen into the smart move.)

When Meyer flamed out, it was back to a DC again, even though Mullen was available then. Then when Muschamp failed, it was on to McElwain with Foley whispering in his ear that he should try to make UF into the UAL program and ignore the history of UF and its strengths. When that failed it was back to a spread offensive coach again ignoring the strengths of UF football.

This cycle of DC, spread coach, DC, UAL clone, spread coach has meant that for the largest part of the time since Spurrier left in January 2002, UF has had a mismatch between the types of players on the roster and what the coach wants to do. This mismatch is due to an AD not understanding UF, UF's football talent and the advantages of football in the state of Florida.

Ultimately this all stems from an AD thinking UF's success in football from 1990 to 2001 was due to the AD and his UAA staff. Thus thinking this was Foley's biggest mistake.

 

[Concrete Helmet]

is it possible mcelwain was our only option b/c other coaches passed due to the facility problem?

It's also possible and imo very likely that Butters was our only option because Foley wouldn't get off the checkbook.....

 

[MADGator]

Facilities don't suck at coaching.

 

[MJMGator]

If you’ve got a great coach, facilities don’t matter. A ****ty coach isn’t overcome by gold toilets and smoothie bars.

 

[gator1946]

What kind of poll is that? Isn't that like asking what's worse, the sink hole your house fell into or the hurricane that took out your next place of residence. Foley managed to puff himself up as next to God. He sucked.

 

[gatorkev85]

Foley's biggest mistake has been and continues to be thinking that it was all about him and the UAA and that UF would win regardless of the coach, facilities, ect because he and the UAA were the best around. This is in a great measure due to not understanding UF football, it is strengths and history.

UF football was defined by Ray Graves and Steve Spurrier as an exciting brand of offensive football with a stellar passing offense. UF football is also a product of the talent advantages, athletes who can run, in the state of Florida.

Due to his lack of understanding and apparent antipathy to all things Spurrier, Foley replaced Spurrier with DC with no vision of the UF football. When that did not work out Foley, probably with no real say in the hiring, made the $50 to $100 million mistake of taking 6 years of Meyer over another say 15 years of Spurrier. I can remember the smug around UF message boards saying of course Foley was so smart then because Meyer would be coaching at UF long after Spurrier retired. (Maybe if Foley understood, UF, its fans and its strengths in football, he could have lobbied Machen into the smart move.)

When Meyer flamed out, it was back to a DC again, even though Mullen was available then. Then when Muschamp failed, it was on to McElwain with Foley whispering in his ear that he should try to make UF into the UAL program and ignore the history of UF and its strengths. When that failed it was back to a spread offensive coach again ignoring the strengths of UF football.

This cycle of DC, spread coach, DC, UAL clone, spread coach has meant that for the largest part of the time since Spurrier left in January 2002, UF has had a mismatch between the types of players on the roster and what the coach wants to do. This mismatch is due to an AD not understanding UF, UF's football talent and the advantages of football in the state of Florida.

Ultimately this all stems from an AD thinking UF's success in football from 1990 to 2001 was due to the AD and his UAA staff. Thus thinking this was Foley's biggest mistake.

Great post! I wish they would have hired Mullen back then like you were saying I think we'd be better off right now as a program. I don't think he'd still be here because I don't think he's a UF caliber coach but I think the program wouldn't be broken right now like it is.

 

[InstiGATOR1]

Great post! I wish they would have hired Mullen back then like you were saying I think we'd be better off right now as a program. I don't think he'd still be here because I don't think he's a UF caliber coach but I think the program wouldn't be broken right now like it is.

We would have at least found out about Mullen a decade before we will now. I have no idea if Mullen will work here or not, but we will now find out in 2020 or 2021 rather than finding in 2012 or 2013. That is a wasted decade at least.

 

[Okeechobee Joe]

I think we try to compete in the SEC with one hand tied behind our back. Not like Vanderbilt who fights with two hands behind its back but not like Alabama who goes to war with two hands and two pretty big hands at that.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Hiring muscrap was the beginning of it all..

Was he worse than Zook? I doubt it.

We got really lucky w Creyer. The only other team bidding for him was the only D1a team that was even more cheapskate (then).

 

[-THE DUDE-]

Was he worse than Zook? I doubt it.

We got really lucky w Creyer. The only other team bidding for him was the only D1a team that was ecen more chintzy (then).

Yes he was worse than Zook...Zook never had a losing record and recruited better. Similar overall record but 2012 was an anomaly that skews muscraps stench

 

[soflagator]

I'd rank Foley's biggest failures this way:

1) facilities
2a) Muschamp
2b) McElwain
3) wardrobe

 

[Double Gator Dad]

First, the real answer to the question is neither.

The primary problem was Foley himself and his arrogant attitude.

Many on here say Butters was the problem and then they go on to say how a great coach would win regardless or that facilities can't coach.
You may not realize it but you sound JUST like Foley. He believed that he could get any coach to come to UF for no other reason than the fact that they could work for such a wonderful person as himself.

I too was skeptical about facilities when all of this player a$$ kissing started 12-15 years ago but I realized early in the Muschamp era that I was wrong and that facilities had to be addressed. Muschamp was able to get decent classes simply by drafting off the success of Meyer. Unfortunately, the shelf life on Meyer's success has long since expired.

None of us are privy to the details on coaching searches but it is VERY possible that Butters was the only viable candidate that would take the job and he took it without realizing just how bad everything was at UF. Who knows what the candidate list would have looked like if Foley had humbled himself a bit and accepted the fact that working for him was not the eternal blessing that he seemed to believe and that he would need to provide the tools coaches need to be successful in today's game.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Yes he was worse than Zook...Zook never had a losing record and recruited better. Similar overall record but 2012 was an anomaly that skews muscraps stench

mehhhhh.... I guess you means look did not have losing records at UF. zook only got two and a half years. I think when you look at the overall records in the end Chimp certainly won't be worse. Zooker recruited well. Chimp recruited well and could coach a good defense.

All three were terrible hires for UF. We arent UAB Southern Miss. But Zooker was the only one who wasn't on the radar of ANY other team. That one was straight-up bromance.