Conceal carry anyone?

ThreatMatrix

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Thanks for sharing that info. From everything I've seen most people say these compact sized pistols really need 500 plus rounds through them before hitting optimal operation but I wouldn't have a clue yet. Others seem to think they just don't like certain kinds of ammo but to me it seems that recoil with such a short barrel could be an inherent problem allowing the slide to return all the way to the firing position. This seems to be the biggest issue on the internet regarding the Sig that I bought.....being the son of a machinist/engineer I'd be likely to say it's in the tolerances of production but I'm only logical after 4 or 5 beers.....
I didn't have any problem with the Shield 9.0 right out of the box. But the Shield EZ liked to stove pipe. As she's approached 500 rounds it does it less. Maybe once a magazine. Still way too much. And being a 380 she'll need the entire magazine ;-)
The EZ has a light recoil spring (thus EZ to rack) however one would hope they've designed it plenty strong to feed. If she's failing to feed it's more likely to be limp wristing than the ammo. The Shields have a nice long feed ramp. A proper polishing doesn't hurt. Like Detroit says it could be mag springs too. I've ordered a new set for my Beretta because she's been acting up lately.
I haven't been down the Sig rabbit hole yet though most of the ones I've picked up have felt good in my hands. I don't love my Shield. But my guns that I do love have issues. The Beretta is big and doesn't have a drop safety. The Makorov is sweet but has a slightly under powered round. Plus they are both surplus pistols and the Shield is new.
My next carry gun may be a Glock 45 MOS: 17 rounds of 9mm goodness and the ability to mount a red dot. My eyesight ain't what it use to be.
 

Nalt

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I've always said the same things in regards to buying a handgun (whether semi-auto or wheel) for CC, because the reality is that all the top names are "good enough" for their stock products, so...
  1. Don't listen to "experts"... especially military/former military, LEO, and gun shop guys. It doesn't mean squat.
  2. Do your research online, talk to people, whatever... and get your mental list of what you think you want.
  3. Go to gun shops, get the "experts" to lay your list on the counter. Go to multiple gun shops and do this for everything on your list.
  4. Pick each one up with proper grip and find the one that feels the best in YOUR hands. Don't worry about the weight. You are picking it up unloaded and the balance will change completely when loaded and only make what feels the best, better. Oh, and IGNORE the "expert" watching you do this.
  5. Bring each one up to what you feel is your natural firing position, then open your eyes to see which one has the best sight alignment. Again, ignore the "expert" watching you do this.
  6. Narrow your list down to the top 2 with best combo of the feel in your hand and best natural sight alignment.
  7. Buy one of those.
  8. Buy 300 rounds of crap ammo. Burn it through the one you bought... aiming not necessary, may even cause you to second guess your purchase. Cheap ammo does not typically group well, period. You aren't worried about accuracy here, you are effectively "polishing" your action and feed ramp if semi-auto. Just a note, when I'm burning bulk ammo for practice, when finished, I will shoot one magazine with my defensive load (see below) just to remember how accurate it actually is.
  9. Buy a box each of 3-5 different good defense loads.
  10. Shoot them from a bench and see which one your weapon eats the best. You are interested in the best GROUPING here, not which is closest to the bullseye. You can adjust/replace your sights (even fixed, non-adjustable ones) to bring that group to the center.
  11. Get training, shoot a lot.
@GatorFL I have no problem with the 642. It's a simple, highly proven, frame and it does its job as well as anything. My bigger point was that while it may be perfect for YOU and YOUR purposes, each individual should find what is best for THEM and THEIR purposes. Sorry if I came across as an ass, it wasn't my intent (well, maybe a little! ;) ).
The way this read, it is obvious that you have some level of expertise in the subject. Though I don't know what that level is I can't and won't argue about it. However, personally, I WOULD talk to the "experts" such as LEO (if I know some) and the gun shop guys because they should be able to offer some insight as to how a particular weapon is supposed to behave. After all, what is the difference in talking with those guys and getting advice from someone on the internet? Personally I would take the word of someone standing in front of me over some internet expert. At the end of the day though, I would find what feels best in MY hands. As you suggested, narrow down the selection to a couple of weapons that "feels" the best and if that particular gun shop doesn't have a range, go to one that does and rent the particular weapons on the narrowed-down list and try them both out BEFORE making the purchase.
 

Detroitgator

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The way this read, it is obvious that you have some level of expertise in the subject. Though I don't know what that level is I can't and won't argue about it. However, personally, I WOULD talk to the "experts" such as LEO (if I know some) and the gun shop guys because they should be able to offer some insight as to how a particular weapon is supposed to behave. After all, what is the difference in talking with those guys and getting advice from someone on the internet? Personally I would take the word of someone standing in front of me over some internet expert. At the end of the day though, I would find what feels best in MY hands. As you suggested, narrow down the selection to a couple of weapons that "feels" the best and if that particular gun shop doesn't have a range, go to one that does and rent the particular weapons on the narrowed-down list and try them both out BEFORE making the purchase.

First of all, we are not in disagreement here. It looks like I mistakenly took it as a "given" that you'd have to develop your initial list from something out there in the world. Develop your list of 10 from anywhere you want, talk to lots of people, but just understand that fully 98% of even so called "experts," just flat out are not "experts" at anything other than their opinion and the one way range (which does not usually consist of deliberate, specific drills), so yes, you weigh that in making your list . The type of "expertise" I am talking about is at the level of multiple, multiple actual experiences killing people, period. Not range time, not LEO/military experience, not owning a gun shop... but killing other human beings, and firing 10's of thousands of rounds training (often in less than a year, not lifetime). Personally, for my drills (i.e. VERY specific drills, not just shooting at targets nor simple presentation from concealed carry, but DRILLS, including under as much fake stress as possible), I fire approximately 300 rounds each of pistol and rifle ammunition per WEEK running drills, and that is down a LOT from my peak years. My point is, and remains, that you get your list of weapons, all of which are "good enough" (because they are, I could out shoot many highly trained people carrying G19's in Afghanistan with my 1987 Russian "left for dead" Makarov, albeit using good ammunition, it's still more about the shooter than the weapon, period), and you worry about two things: 1) how the weapon grip feels in YOUR hand (for me personally, CZ 75 compact's and P10C's flat out fit MY hands like they were custom measured/made for MY hands, no adjustable straps needed, same with the grip angle for CZs... I hate Glock's grip angle for ME. CZ's also have perfect balance for ME. It will be different for YOUR hands, see what I mean?), and 2) which has best natural sight alignment for YOU, not some expert, because it will be different. For me, it doesn't matter if my Glock 19 or my Sig P228 are infinitesimally more reliable than my CZ 75 or P10C, the grip angle on the Glocks (too vertical for me) and the overall grip of the Sig's (too fat for my hand) make them unacceptable (relatively speaking) for ME (but not others, I'm not bashing them, I own both) to daily carry.

I just deleted a bunch more I had typed because I'm rambling! You get the idea: build a list, best grip, best natural sight picture, buy best for you, get GOOD training (and you'll likely have to go to a 3 day camp for that, not something local), DRILL DRILL DRILL! Then pray to whatever you pray to that "the day" will never come, because I'm telling you, you never want "that day" to come, period. ;)
 

Concrete Helmet

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I have a pocket .380 for the 6 times per year I have to wear a suit, the rest of the time, no matter what I'm wearing, its the Glock 19 sized daily carry.
It's seems that every gun in this size gets compared with that Glock...Have not really heard anything negative about one either.
 

Detroitgator

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It's seems that every gun in this size gets compared with that Glock...Have not really heard anything negative about one either.
I used it as reference because he mentioned it... Glock's, especially the 19, are ubiquitous, errbody gets what your talking about. I'm talking about anything with an approximately 4" barrel length.
 

Nalt

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...You get the idea: build a list, best grip, best natural sight picture, buy best for you, get GOOD training (and you'll likely have to go to a 3 day camp for that, not something local), DRILL DRILL DRILL! Then pray to whatever you pray to that "the day" will never come, because I'm telling you, you never want "that day" to come, period. ;)
I'm glad you took my post as it was meant, not as I was trying to be a smart alec...I wasn't. I agree totally. While I don't drill like I should, I am fortunate to have a next door neighbor who has a pistol range and a 100 & 200 meter rifle range that I can use pretty much any time that I want. His pistol range is several stands arranged in an area of about 1000 square feet with targets that can be placed on top that fall off when hit.

My personal CC weapon is a Bursa Thunder .380. It feels in my hand just like you stated, like it was custom fitted for me. While a .380 wouldn't likely take down a Kodiak Brown bear, it would likely stop most men that aren't strung out on drugs. I just wish that I could find a kydex holster that fits it that I could fit inside the back of my waistband... :fistbump:
 

ThreatMatrix

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First of all, we are not in disagreement here. It looks like I mistakenly took it as a "given" that you'd have to develop your initial list from something out there in the world. Develop your list of 10 from anywhere you want, talk to lots of people, but just understand that fully 98% of even so called "experts," just flat out are not "experts" at anything other than their opinion and the one way range (which does not usually consist of deliberate, specific drills), so yes, you weigh that in making your list . The type of "expertise" I am talking about is at the level of multiple, multiple actual experiences killing people, period. Not range time, not LEO/military experience, not owning a gun shop... but killing other human beings, and firing 10's of thousands of rounds training (often in less than a year, not lifetime). Personally, for my drills (i.e. VERY specific drills, not just shooting at targets nor simple presentation from concealed carry, but DRILLS, including under as much fake stress as possible), I fire approximately 300 rounds each of pistol and rifle ammunition per WEEK running drills, and that is down a LOT from my peak years. My point is, and remains, that you get your list of weapons, all of which are "good enough" (because they are, I could out shoot many highly trained people carrying G19's in Afghanistan with my 1987 Russian "left for dead" Makarov, albeit using good ammunition, it's still more about the shooter than the weapon, period), and you worry about two things: 1) how the weapon grip feels in YOUR hand (for me personally, CZ 75 compact's and P10C's flat out fit MY hands like they were custom measured/made for MY hands, no adjustable straps needed, same with the grip angle for CZs... I hate Glock's grip angle for ME. CZ's also have perfect balance for ME. It will be different for YOUR hands, see what I mean?), and 2) which has best natural sight alignment for YOU, not some expert, because it will be different. For me, it doesn't matter if my Glock 19 or my Sig P228 are infinitesimally more reliable than my CZ 75 or P10C, the grip angle on the Glocks (too vertical for me) and the overall grip of the Sig's (too fat for my hand) make them unacceptable (relatively speaking) for ME (but not others, I'm not bashing them, I own both) to daily carry.

I just deleted a bunch more I had typed because I'm rambling! You get the idea: build a list, best grip, best natural sight picture, buy best for you, get GOOD training (and you'll likely have to go to a 3 day camp for that, not something local), DRILL DRILL DRILL! Then pray to whatever you pray to that "the day" will never come, because I'm telling you, you never want "that day" to come, period. ;)

Good point about the Glocks. I need to take a step back and shoot a few before I make a purchase. Grip may not be everything but it certainly is a major thing. Incidentally Detroit, I took a look at CZ-82 because I like my Mak so much. It has a thumb mag release however and I was unable to reach it (and I thought I had big hands) so that ruled that out. But based on what your saying I may have to give CZ some more thought.

As far as sight alignment. I am almost always pointing a little down and left when I present regardless of the gun. That's a good thing because being consistent means I can fix it.

And I'll reiterate the DRILL, DRILL, DRILL mantra. No sense in owning a gun if you aren't 100% confident every time you pick it up. You'll know when you get there.
 

Nalt

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Does anyone of y'all have the Smith & Wesson Bodyguard? I bought one a few years ago and loved it until I actually fired it. The trigger pull is waaaaaaaay to long. There is an aftermarket remedy but I'm not willing to spend the $$ to do it. I'd rather unload it on someone else... Just wondering what others thought about that weapon.
 

Albert

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Does anyone of y'all have the Smith & Wesson Bodyguard? I bought one a few years ago and loved it until I actually fired it. The trigger pull is waaaaaaaay to long. There is an aftermarket remedy but I'm not willing to spend the $$ to do it. I'd rather unload it on someone else... Just wondering what others thought about that weapon.
Got one, same problem, it got gone.
 

Detroitgator

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FWIW, i'm not a fan of any s&w semi-auto. they were the wheel gun guys that got into the semi-auto world because they had too.
 

Swamp Donkey

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I have a pocket .380 for the 6 times per year I have to wear a suit, the rest of the time, no matter what I'm wearing, its the Glock 19 sized daily carry.
Even with the suit there are thunderwear or belly band options.

Not wearing a belly band as they advertise those goofy things up, halfway up your abdomen but in the same place where your belt holster would normally be.... just under your shirt. little slow to draw of course because you have to yank on the shirt to untuck but works really well.

or just keep your jacket on and wear a regular holster
 
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Swamp Donkey

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. Though I don't know what that level is I can't and won't argue about it. However, personally, I WOULD talk to the "experts" such as LEO (if I know some) and the gun shop guys because they should be able to offer some insight as to how a particular weapon is supposed to behave. .
About 90% of the cops and 95% of the guys who.work.at gun shops dont know shtt about guns.

I agree with shooting, not just feeling.
 

Swamp Donkey

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It's seems that every gun in this size gets compared with that Glock...Have not really heard anything negative about one either.
honestly your options have never been better.

if someone gave me most Berettas Smith & Wesson's Glock Sig FN Taurus Ruger HK CZ... I'm probably a handful of others I can't think of at the moment... in 380, 9 mm, 40, 45, 10 mm, and some other calibers I can't remember at the moment--I would grab it, load it, and feel comfortable with it. There are a lot of good guns on the market.

Edit: Bersa too.

I remember when it was expected that you had to put a thousand to $2,000 into your handgun handgun better sites or gunsmithing just to make the thing work well and reliably.
 
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Durty South Swamp

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Just got off the phone with the owner of Wolf/SSI to get 4,000 rds of .40SW FMJ for a customer... Black Hills got me the 4,000 of JHP to go with it yesterday.

Got a fax quote... yes, a fukkin FAX! ...from Ukraine this morning for 50 laster guided "Kombat" ATGMs...

I know guys, it's what I do... ;)
what was the price point delta between what it's been the last couple years? Anything avail on the open market right now is insane. I haven't bought ammo in over 6 months because of it. My shooting is way down too as I don't want to deplete my supply. I would frequently burn 1000 rounds a month. I havent fired a live round since June. I hate it.
 

Detroitgator

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what was the price point delta between what it's been the last couple years? Anything avail on the open market right now is insane. I haven't bought ammo in over 6 months because of it. My shooting is way down too as I don't want to deplete my supply. I would frequently burn 1000 rounds a month. I havent fired a live round since June. I hate it.
I'm not sure. I don't think you could find 8,000 rds commercially if you wanted to. I'm paying $0.66/rd shipped for the Black Hills JHP, $0.37 shipped for the Wolf FMJ.
 

BMF

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I've got a S&W M&P Shield as a CCW. I rarely carry, as living in the DC area I could get arrested if I cross into the wrong jurisdiction. It's a solid handgun, easy to use. It was/is hard to take apart to clean, which I don't like. I assume once I put enough rounds through it and the more I clean it it will loosen up, but right now it's a b*tch to take apart (I've had it for three years and have probably put 400-500 rounds through it).
 

Swamp Donkey

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I've got a S&W M&P Shield as a CCW. I rarely carry, as living in the DC area I could get arrested if I cross into the wrong jurisdiction. It's a solid handgun, easy to use. It was/is hard to take apart to clean, which I don't like. I assume once I put enough rounds through it and the more I clean it it will loosen up, but right now it's a b*tch to take apart (I've had it for three years and have probably put 400-500 rounds through it).
send it back. they will fix it. they have been sending out way too many problem guns. The 380 Chief special are really problematic.
 

Swamp Donkey

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Does anyone of y'all have the Smith & Wesson Bodyguard? I bought one a few years ago and loved it until I actually fired it. The trigger pull is waaaaaaaay to long. There is an aftermarket remedy but I'm not willing to spend the $$ to do it. I'd rather unload it on someone else... Just wondering what others thought about that weapon.
Smith & Wesson's always late to the game. several agencies went through the phase of wanting long hard trigger pulls in the 90s.

I really like the ergonomics on the Smith & Wesson M&P but the trigger pull is designed by Massachusetts lawyers.
 

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