Single plane swing
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- Jun 12, 2014
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And all this time I thought they were to help my arthritic hands
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- Jun 10, 2014
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Upright was great for irons. But for me my driver was long but all over the place. My swing change was when I was about 45. I wanted to hit a natural draw. I also got tired of going over the top and dumping a push/slice into the parking lot once a round. I emulated jack when I was young and got down to a 3 or 4. But I had to practice till my hands were bloody. No talent...none. I got tired of trying to swing like only one human being on earth could swing. That would be Nicklaus. Golf my way...pffft. Now with the new equipment and I guess a new philosophy, a fade is in. FML.
You friend must have the hand eye coordination of the gods. I don't know him but I hate him anyhow.
And finally while I'm ragging on Nicklaus. I also copied the way he hit wedges early in his career...all wristy. Thanks Jack. When I figured out that was wrong I shaved a few strokes.
All that said. Jack's still the GOAT.
You friend must have the hand eye coordination of the gods. I don't know him but I hate him anyhow.
And finally while I'm ragging on Nicklaus. I also copied the way he hit wedges early in his career...all wristy. Thanks Jack. When I figured out that was wrong I shaved a few strokes.
All that said. Jack's still the GOAT.
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- Oct 15, 2018
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I played golf for about 40 years though havent touched a club in about 3 years. I maintained a handicap under 5 for about 30 of the 40 years and under 2 for about 5 of the 40 years. As a product of 70s youth golf, I was taught the classic c swing and even though I dabbled into making changes here and there I remained a classic c swinger.
Single plane swing ... just not a fan. It is awkward and goes against the natural flow of how the body hinges and unhinges. On a white board and as theory, the single plane swing is perfect. But ... humans are not perfect. I really kinda think Arnold Palmer said it best when he said "Swing your swing." I think there are positions each of us need to be in at certain points of OUR own swing. If you look at Bryson's swing in slo mo, even his swing isn't a single plane swing. Its close ... but it isnt. Even a putting swing isn't a single plane ... it has inside and out as well as wrist cock and release that alters the paths taken from back and through.
Single plane swing ... just not a fan. It is awkward and goes against the natural flow of how the body hinges and unhinges. On a white board and as theory, the single plane swing is perfect. But ... humans are not perfect. I really kinda think Arnold Palmer said it best when he said "Swing your swing." I think there are positions each of us need to be in at certain points of OUR own swing. If you look at Bryson's swing in slo mo, even his swing isn't a single plane swing. Its close ... but it isnt. Even a putting swing isn't a single plane ... it has inside and out as well as wrist cock and release that alters the paths taken from back and through.
- Jun 12, 2014
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Years ago I was playing golf several times a week and I finally started breaking 80 consistently. I studied in tremendous detail and tried to replicate Adam Scott's swing.
Just about every week I would have my wife film my swing from multiple angles and there are some incredible golf apps that will shadow motion, draw sight lines, etc, etc. Regardless of the technique you choose, I think analyzing it on film is a must. It's the only way to effectively see simple things.... like head position:
Just about every week I would have my wife film my swing from multiple angles and there are some incredible golf apps that will shadow motion, draw sight lines, etc, etc. Regardless of the technique you choose, I think analyzing it on film is a must. It's the only way to effectively see simple things.... like head position:
- Oct 15, 2018
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Brad ... I agree. I worked with a pro that would video my swing and then we would work on changes this and that. At first, it really screwed with my head because the initial shock of not seeing a position that I felt like I was getting in kinda threw my golfing reality into chaos. It took some time until I started to 'redefine' my swing feeling to what was actually happening until I could really start making adjustments without bad thoughts during a swing.
- Jun 12, 2014
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Not even Moe stayed directly on plane for the entire swing, but the idea of addressing the ball on the same plane that you're going to be at impact makes a lot of sense to me even if you use more traditional mechanics. Moe could sit there and hit 800 golf balls in a row and not get tired or hurt using his swing.
My golf coach in Corpus Christi was Phil Blackmar who won a few PGA events in his day. One thing he said to me during one of our first sessions was that if all you had to do is what feels right, then everybody would be a scratch golfer.
The difficulty I had when I was a 4 handicap was no matter how well I was hitting the ball, there would always be those one or two swings every round that got away from me and put a big number. After finally hitting even par from the blues on my home course, I pretty much hung it up for a decade but now I'm getting back into it. I'm about a 9 right now but I'm thinking about changing my swing up in hopes that as I get used to playing again my ceiling will be a little higher. Personally I don't think there is anything all that "natural" about either method of swinging a golf club. The only point is to deliver the club head onto the back of the ball at the right angle so the ball goes where you want it to go.
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Pretty sure Jack usually hit a fade.
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Moe is Moe. Swing your swing. The idea of addressing the ball in the same manner you will be at impact makes no sense and is an irrelevant point because you are only talking about the plane of the club and arms. You physically cannot get into the impact position of a full swing because your arms, torso, neck, legs ... and so on ... are bending from the momentum created as you uncoil and release. Getting in a perfect impact position only matters at impact and it 'feels', 'looks' and 'is' totally different from any position you try to get in at the start of a swing to replicate it.
Phil is correct. But I really dont think that statement is any sort of support to the point you are trying to make. Everybody can't be a scratch golfer no matter how hard they try. So it really is a cool thing to say but it really has no substance. When someone starts to understand what feels right in relation to a swing then they will start to improve. The problem is that the vast majority of golfers don't know what right actually feels right with exception to when they finally get lucky and tag the ball in the center of a clubface and on target. There is no better feeling than that. What everyone does feel is what is wrong with a consistent redo of that feeling over and over as they 'try' to sort out what it is that is exactly making them get into the wrong position.
Newsflash ... everybody on every single round has those one or two swings that get away from them. The difference between a scratch golfer and your bogie golfer is the scratch golfer understands its going to happen and they recover. The bogey golfer thinks the world is ending and it goes south quick.
Golf is a very personal game. Its hard to relate to people what you are feeling to what you are doing. Its scientific and its art. It goes from being the hardest game in the world to an easy walk in the park and then back to nothing goes right.
EDIT: You mentioned that shaft length and swing plane were two separate things for Bryson but truth be told they are not. They are integral parts of his philosophy and if you remove one then the other is ruined. His premise is to have all his clubs the same length and lie angle so his swing would be the same.
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- Jun 12, 2014
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The comment about doing what feels right makes perfect sense unless you're just trying to argue for argument's sake. Everytime anybody does anything, they are doing what feels right to them. The point is that what feels right to a guy who doesn't know what he's doing isn't actually right. It feels right to him when he swings over the top or grips the club incorrectly. The further point is that just because somebody has been taught one way to swing the club and has done so enough times so that his swing feels right doesn't mean that another way to swing the club is wrong just because it feels wrong to that guy.
Obviously, being able to recover from a bad shot is part of the game, not just technique wise but mentally. But the fact is that averaged over time, the guy with a more repeatable swing and consistent shot is going to score better than a guy who hits some great shots and some poor shots. Would you disagree?
Obviously, being able to recover from a bad shot is part of the game, not just technique wise but mentally. But the fact is that averaged over time, the guy with a more repeatable swing and consistent shot is going to score better than a guy who hits some great shots and some poor shots. Would you disagree?
- Oct 15, 2018
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The comment about if everyone just did what they felt right would be a scratch golfer makes no sense. Its a cliche sound byte that has been said over and over ... and I promise you Phil Blackmar isn't the first guy to say it. Keep your head down is another one ... but in reality nobody keeps their head down and if you do it will totally disrupt the swing plane. Only point I was making is that that statement is a cute statement that really is irrelevant.
As to recovering. I could actually agree and disagree. Most of the time, effectiver recovery requires that you alter your swing. In fact ... most shots on course require that you alter your swing to hit the shot that is actually needed for that shot. But I really wasn't trying to take it there because that is getting into the weeds of what you are trying to say as a general statement. If one can tie their swing feeling to their actual swing then they should be able to (with practice and experience) alter their swing feeling to alter the swing that results in a specific shot shape. Hitting the same shot over and over is the worst thing one can do to get better as a golfer. Every single shot is different.
- Jun 10, 2014
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Yep. So I hit a fade. I unfortunately was not Jack. I even started with the flying elbow until I found out that wasn't going to work out at all. Here's the deal. You have a 14 year old kid who's fallen in love with golf. You see Jack in the flesh absolutely crush the ball and you say I'm going to swing exactly like him. Biiiiiiiiiiiig mistake.
- Jun 12, 2014
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Well there are shot shapes and then there are trick shots, like some of the recoveries TW makes from time to time where he hits I gigantic slice to get around a tree from the right rough. I think that a repeatable swing and being able to shape that ball aren't mutually exclusive. By just adjusting your aim point and opening/closing the face while taking your normal grip and swing you can work the ball either way.
Obviously there are many ways to swing the club, heck just look at Jim Furyk or that new guy Matt Wolff. They swing their swing. I actually tried to imitate Wolff's swing and bringing the club back almost straight up and then dropping it into the slot made it easier for me to make the turn and start my downswing without the right shoulder coming up and over instead of down and through. But I'm still curious to see if the hands high address or single plane or whatever you want to call it is a good option. I can tell you that my ball flight when hitting this way was very straight and predictable. With my normal swing I usually hit a baby fade but of course sometimes it goes straight, sometimes it slices, and once in a while I'll even hook it.
As far as impact vs address, take a look at Bryson. Of course its not exact, nor is his swing plane exactly one plane, but compared to a traditional swing its much much closer. I can easily see how that makes his swing more repeatable. Less moving parts.
- Oct 15, 2018
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The first thing you do in a preshot routine is assess your lie and how it will impact the shot. The second thing you do is assess your stance and how it will impact your swing. The point I am making ... there is no shot that is the same. But like you allude to, you have to be able to predict what the ball will do when you hit it from that lie and stance.
Ive never been a supporter of changing your grip to change the shot shape. When you say adjust your clubface as to how it relates to the ball at address is changing your grip. It isnt a normal grip. You have effectively weakened or strengthened your grip in order to adjust the clubface at address. Ive always tried to, and been taught to, adjust impact position by delaying or forcing my release in order to work the ball. Funny things happen to your swing when you strengthen or weaken your grip because head weight changes as it traverses the swing plane. The whole point of teaching your body to understand what right and wrong feels like is undercut when you change the club head position in your hands at address. You want to feel that in your swing.
As far as Bryson, he is a pro and has his swing down. But lets be honest, he aint lighting it up out there nor is he changing golf. But there is a whole lot to learn from him because how he approaches the game really can help people understand the importance of how much other things affect the ball than just the swing. There are so many things that can cause a ball to not go where it you think it will go that goes back to my first paragraph. He has methodically created a system that helps make sure he correctly accounts for all those outside influences.
- Jun 12, 2014
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That's a head scratcher. Bryson is 8th in the world golf rankings. Not sure how high you have to get to officially be "lighting it up." Either one of three things is possible...his swing could make no difference and he's gonna be the 8th ranked player in the world no matter how he swings..or, his swing sucks and he'd be much higher if he had a better swing....or, he's not as athletic as DJ or Rory but his simple swing makes him more competitive than he otherwise would be.
You're obviously good at golf if you're athletic enough to simply grip the club the same way every time but deliver it into the back of the ball at different angles just with timing. But that's also the reason IMO that your average golfer is a crappy golfer. Most people aren't athletic enough to do that, and if they try it results in disaster. The ball will still fade or draw just fine if you rotate the clubface a hair closed or open at address and grip the club the same way every time. Now don't get me wrong, I can sit on the practice tee and using the same grip hit all kinds of shot shapes by adjusting my timing and path but the only way most of us, including myself, get repeatable shotmaking spin is by using a normal swing with a small grip adjustment. In the same vein, if I wanted to shorten my distance with a particular club I could just swing a little easier but I find its better to choke down a little bit and just use my normal swing.
You're obviously good at golf if you're athletic enough to simply grip the club the same way every time but deliver it into the back of the ball at different angles just with timing. But that's also the reason IMO that your average golfer is a crappy golfer. Most people aren't athletic enough to do that, and if they try it results in disaster. The ball will still fade or draw just fine if you rotate the clubface a hair closed or open at address and grip the club the same way every time. Now don't get me wrong, I can sit on the practice tee and using the same grip hit all kinds of shot shapes by adjusting my timing and path but the only way most of us, including myself, get repeatable shotmaking spin is by using a normal swing with a small grip adjustment. In the same vein, if I wanted to shorten my distance with a particular club I could just swing a little easier but I find its better to choke down a little bit and just use my normal swing.
- Oct 15, 2018
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His ranking is inflated a bit because he has to go play way more tournaments than the other guys around him the rankings. His swing mentality and club lengths isn't changing golf nor is it giving him any clear advantage over anyone. He is just really good at golfing his ball. He is really good at assessing a shot and then swinging a club to hit a shot that is needed for that particular shot. I dont mean to not give him credit ... because he is a pro and pretty good ... but lets be honest, he isn't the next Nicklaus, Tiger and so on.
Well ... yeah ... we are talking about what good golfers do versus the range warriors trying to replicate what this pro or that pro is doing. I could sit on a range and hit perfect ball after perfect ball. I could spend an hour on the practice green nailing 5ft putt after 5ft putt. That is hitting the same shot over and over. That is easy in comparison to a round of golf. Why would anyone practice that way? On the course you are going to have shots where the ball is below your feet, above your feet, downhill lies, uphill lies, sideways lies ... and so on.
Like I said. I have never been someone to tell someone else to change their grip. If that is how you want to do it then do it. But, in my opinion, it takes way more athleticism to account for the change in the club position and weight in the swing to get the club back to that same position you started with than it does to delay or force the release ... or to alter the plane by going inside or out. In my opinion, and most swing coaches ... the grip is the most important part of your swing in creating that foundation of how you feel the club moving through your swing so that you can actually know where it is pointed throughout the swing. Change the grip by altering its address before the swing throws that off and will require more athleticism to get to impact as intended.
Well ... yeah ... we are talking about what good golfers do versus the range warriors trying to replicate what this pro or that pro is doing. I could sit on a range and hit perfect ball after perfect ball. I could spend an hour on the practice green nailing 5ft putt after 5ft putt. That is hitting the same shot over and over. That is easy in comparison to a round of golf. Why would anyone practice that way? On the course you are going to have shots where the ball is below your feet, above your feet, downhill lies, uphill lies, sideways lies ... and so on.
Like I said. I have never been someone to tell someone else to change their grip. If that is how you want to do it then do it. But, in my opinion, it takes way more athleticism to account for the change in the club position and weight in the swing to get the club back to that same position you started with than it does to delay or force the release ... or to alter the plane by going inside or out. In my opinion, and most swing coaches ... the grip is the most important part of your swing in creating that foundation of how you feel the club moving through your swing so that you can actually know where it is pointed throughout the swing. Change the grip by altering its address before the swing throws that off and will require more athleticism to get to impact as intended.
