Any Car Salesman or Savvy Car Shoppers?

[bradgator2]

If you enjoy fuking with them, then we have a good setup. Of course, we are ass holes. We were buying new and so we did tons of research. Just about every vehicle has a forum like this, and there is always a purchase thread going. Over the phone, we had a deal negotiated with Honda in Gainesville for a new Odyssey for $27,900.

So the fun part: send the wife in to our local Honda dealer and dont let them know we have the other deal in place. I’ll be there in 2 hours. They would never give her a price. But when I got there, they presented us.... WITH trade in.... at $42,000

After several insults, and a few upper managers kissing our ass as we were leaving.... we got it for $26,900.

They do not want you to walk out that door.

Research, research, research. All the huge dealers have their used inventory on a nice website. Be willing to drive several hours away to go get it. Regardless of what they tell you and how much they kick and scream about it.... they will do nearly the whole deal over the phone.

 

[Pablos Tunnel]

Find a wealthy girlfriend and make her buy you a new spinner

 

[Concrete Helmet]

I bought my Tundra 2 years ago. Researched it first on line. Sticker price was $61k, but because I did my homework I got them down to $43k. This was after I got them from $12k up to $25k on the trade-in of my FJ. Got it financed at 3% which was more than I wanted but they insisted Toyota wouldn’t go any lower at the time.

That just goes to show everyone that great deals are out there if you look hard enough. Nice snag....

2 reasons that you were able to get them to move that much is I believe you bought the 1794 Edition? That is as high end as you can go at a Toyota dealership. High end units carry a much higher margin for the dealer but they also take space on the floor plan financing(dealers finance their inventory from the factory)if they had been paying on that unit for a while they needed to free up money for more inventory.....The other was your trade in(Toyota FJ) brings HUGE buy bids from exporters. They probably had a buy bid from an exporter/wholesaler for 20K or more...My dealer gave me 6500 on a 2002 Tacoma with 165000 miles and in questionable cosmetic condition(I used it as my fishing and work truck and I know for sure no one ever got the stink out of that thing, cloth seats, cigars and too many beer farts....)I ask them if they had an export deal lined up and they said yes their wholesaler did and would probably get 10-12K in C. America....

 

[Gatorbreath]

Do I hold my cards close with offering cash down? How much room is typically there with negotiating down the price? 5%, 10%, 2%?

OK - there is a flipside to my previous post.

In my opinion (YMMV), in principle, a car dealership is a business not unlike any other and entitled to make a fair profit. As a buyer, my attitude has always been, make a little on me - that's fine - but get fat on the other customer - the lazy mope that doesn't come to the deal table heavy with prep and a willingness to mix it up a bit. Again, that is my opinion.

One thing I forgot to mention in the previous post: When you're negotiating, you need to have at least one and ideally as many as 3 reasons you think your number is fair. A good sales rep will do this with his figures, too - though his justifications may or may not be BS. And a good sales rep will ask you why you think an offer is fair if you don't offer justification. If you don't have an answer, you'll look weak and unprepared.

So with that in mind, where you start your negotiations will tell the tale. The sales rep will want to start and close you on the price listed on the dealer's bump sticker. (The bump sticker is the sticker the dealer applies next to the OEM's MSRP sticker that shows the "undercoating" or "pinstripe fee", etc. And by the way, the OEM's MSRP sticker has lots of federal regs that go with it - if memory serves. The flipside is, the dealer can do whatever he wants with the bump sticker.) So the sales rep will sit you down and list the selling price of the vehicle with everything and will start the negotiation there and "walk you down", grinding on you each step of the way. And if he's good, he'll have justification for each figure. Do not allow this.

When I sold cars, I'd write up the buyer's order at full MSRP plus the bump sticker, then I'd flip the doc around so the customer is reading it while I walk him down the entire doc, then I'd assumptively point out where he needs to sign, then put the pen down and wait for him to sign. Rarely, they'd sign right there, but more typically, this is where grinding starts. He might say something like, "Wait, that's more than I want to spend" or, "I'm not paying MSRP" or something similar. Good sales reps begin to overcome objections by asking questions. So, I'd feign surprise at his comment and ask 3 questions that map back to the info I gleaned while profiling him earlier in the process. Then I'd have a reply queued up akin pointing out that the retail car business is among the most heavily regulated in our free economy and our federal government has determined that this is a fair price for this car. Yada yada. Then ask him to sign again. You get the idea, right? I started the negotiation where I wanted and I have justification for each figure I put out there.

Ideally, you want to start somewhere way south of the MSRP. Don't even pay attention to the bump sticker. Most of that stuff is crap. If there's something you really want that's on the bump sticker, make mental note of it, then after you have a deal, tell them to throw it in (I am referring to small items like floor mats, etc. They will not throw in 8 10,000 watt stereo speakers...). The wholesale price is a good starting point - or was back in the day. Dealers still make good money if they roll a car at wholesale (sales reps - not so much, though they will be spiffed for rolling the unit and likely make a "mini-deal" commission). There are other revenue streams like holdback and pack fees and probably lots more. All dealerships are allocated cars based on the numbers they sell - sell more this year, get even more next year. And there are all sorts of perks and bonuses that have nothing to do with what they sell the cars for - just that they sell the cars. So, even if you assume they're not making money on you selling at wholesale (and believe me, they are) - there are lots of other reasons they'll want to take a short deal and roll the car to you.

So... someone above reiterated the value of research and went a step further by suggesting lurking on make and even better, model-specific forums. This way, you can learn terminology specific to that brand/model, learn more about the OEM and the dealer's revenue streams and what others have purchased the car you want for. This is an excellent idea and a point I had planned to make. There is sooooo much info out there today for a savvy buyer.

Back to your deal. Based on your research, you may want to start your deal at wholesale less $500 and here's why..... (based on your research). Write down your offer on a piece of paper, sign it and give the guy the check we talked about the other day. Then, shut up. Unless you bite at MSRP plus bump, the sales rep is unlikely to accept your first offer. But you've started the conversation on terms favorable to you and you've shown him you're serious by signing your name (believe me - that's a big deal - even on an "offer" to buy on scratch paper) and giving him a check. Then, walk up from your offer - not down from his. Good reps will have a justification for each counteroffer they make (And believe me, when he goes to "touch the desk" - ie, talk to his manager, he's getting his lips loaded in addition to getting a new counteroffer). And remember I said be in charge yada yada but don't be an a-hole? See why? You need that guy's defenses down, you want him sort of pulling for you while thinking you're a serious buyer and worth spending time on - but one that's well-prepared and intelligent. He'll fairly quickly start thinking of you in terms of just getting the unit out the door - which helps him in other ways - rather than tearing your head off and making lots of money on you.

So again, do your research. Determine what you want and what you're comfortable paying. Be prepared, direct, determined and decent. Don't get emotional (either wanting the car too much or in how you think of the rep). Remember: there are lots of other places you can buy your car and at the end of the day, it is just a car!! Make your best deal that makes you happy and move on to bigger and more important things!

 

[NVGator]

OK - there is a flipside to my previous post.

In my opinion (YMMV), in principle, a car dealership is a business not unlike any other and entitled to make a fair profit. As a buyer, my attitude has always been, make a little on me - that's fine - but get fat on the other customer - the lazy mope that doesn't come to the deal table heavy with prep and a willingness to mix it up a bit. Again, that is my opinion.

One thing I forgot to mention in the previous post: When you're negotiating, you need to have at least one and ideally as many as 3 reasons you think your number is fair. A good sales rep will do this with his figures, too - though his justifications may or may not be BS. And a good sales rep will ask you why you think an offer is fair if you don't offer justification. If you don't have an answer, you'll look weak and unprepared.

So with that in mind, where you start your negotiations will tell the tale. The sales rep will want to start and close you on the price listed on the dealer's bump sticker. (The bump sticker is the sticker the dealer applies next to the OEM's MSRP sticker that shows the "undercoating" or "pinstripe fee", etc. And by the way, the OEM's MSRP sticker has lots of federal regs that go with it - if memory serves. The flipside is, the dealer can do whatever he wants with the bump sticker.) So the sales rep will sit you down and list the selling price of the vehicle with everything and will start the negotiation there and "walk you down", grinding on you each step of the way. And if he's good, he'll have justification for each figure. Do not allow this.

When I sold cars, I'd write up the buyer's order at full MSRP plus the bump sticker, then I'd flip the doc around so the customer is reading it while I walk him down the entire doc, then I'd assumptively point out where he needs to sign, then put the pen down and wait for him to sign. Rarely, they'd sign right there, but more typically, this is where grinding starts. He might say something like, "Wait, that's more than I want to spend" or, "I'm not paying MSRP" or something similar. Good sales reps begin to overcome objections by asking questions. So, I'd feign surprise at his comment and ask 3 questions that map back to the info I gleaned while profiling him earlier in the process. Then I'd have a reply queued up akin pointing out that the retail car business is among the most heavily regulated in our free economy and our federal government has determined that this is a fair price for this car. Yada yada. Then ask him to sign again. You get the idea, right? I started the negotiation where I wanted and I have justification for each figure I put out there.

Ideally, you want to start somewhere way south of the MSRP. Don't even pay attention to the bump sticker. Most of that stuff is crap. If there's something you really want that's on the bump sticker, make mental note of it, then after you have a deal, tell them to throw it in (I am referring to small items like floor mats, etc. They will not throw in 8 10,000 watt stereo speakers...). The wholesale price is a good starting point - or was back in the day. Dealers still make good money if they roll a car at wholesale (sales reps - not so much, though they will be spiffed for rolling the unit and likely make a "mini-deal" commission). There are other revenue streams like holdback and pack fees and probably lots more. All dealerships are allocated cars based on the numbers they sell - sell more this year, get even more next year. And there are all sorts of perks and bonuses that have nothing to do with what they sell the cars for - just that they sell the cars. So, even if you assume they're not making money on you selling at wholesale (and believe me, they are) - there are lots of other reasons they'll want to take a short deal and roll the car to you.

So... someone above reiterated the value of research and went a step further by suggesting lurking on make and even better, model-specific forums. This way, you can learn terminology specific to that brand/model, learn more about the OEM and the dealer's revenue streams and what others have purchased the car you want for. This is an excellent idea and a point I had planned to make. There is sooooo much info out there today for a savvy buyer.

Back to your deal. Based on your research, you may want to start your deal at wholesale less $500 and here's why..... (based on your research). Write down your offer on a piece of paper, sign it and give the guy the check we talked about the other day. Then, shut up. Unless you bite at MSRP plus bump, the sales rep is unlikely to accept your first offer. But you've started the conversation on terms favorable to you and you've shown him you're serious by signing your name (believe me - that's a big deal - even on an "offer" to buy on scratch paper) and giving him a check. Then, walk up from your offer - not down from his. Good reps will have a justification for each counteroffer they make (And believe me, when he goes to "touch the desk" - ie, talk to his manager, he's getting his lips loaded in addition to getting a new counteroffer). And remember I said be in charge yada yada but don't be an a-hole? See why? You need that guy's defenses down, you want him sort of pulling for you while thinking you're a serious buyer and worth spending time on - but one that's well-prepared and intelligent. He'll fairly quickly start thinking of you in terms of just getting the unit out the door - which helps him in other ways - rather than tearing your head off and making lots of money on you.

So again, do your research. Determine what you want and what you're comfortable paying. Be prepared, direct, determined and decent. Don't get emotional (either wanting the car too much or in how you think of the rep). Remember: there are lots of other places you can buy your car and at the end of the day, it is just a car!! Make your best deal that makes you happy and move on to bigger and more important things!

I'm taking note and this is all great information. Again, thank you for the time you've put in to adding this valuable insight. As for MSRP, that's not going to be disclosed on a pre-owned car, right? Typically they just have their own price written on the windshield.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Honestly, I don't do any of that shyt, negotiating for hours and listing reasons, etc. I tell them what I will buy the car for and usually say $500 over what you paid for it or whatever, then give the amount. They usually start with a $5000 deal, and come back with $2500 or something bc "the sales manager is really wanting to move cars today" then I leave. They call back later. I come back when they agree to my price or slightly above. I usually go to about $750 if I want the car.

I doubt I'd even make an offer is someone gave me one of these 26k to 42k deals like Brad had. They don't sound like an honorable business in which I'd want to spend a dime.

 

[Gatorbreath]

As for MSRP, that's not going to be disclosed on a pre-owned car, right? Typically they just have their own price written on the windshield.

That is correct. Pre-owned is something of the wild west of car sales. You simply can't know what the dealer has in the car. When taking a car in on trade, they will inspect it, maybe even drive it - then put a best-guess figure on what they'll pay to acquire the car. Remember, they'll have to do something once they take it in - sell it retail on their lot, auction it off..... Let's say it's a piece they want to keep and sell themselves. They put a trade figure on it to make the the new car sale, but then they get it in the shop and find out it needs... I don't know - a new valve cover gasket. The cost to repair and recondition the car and prep it for sale on their lot is unknowable. Each department bills the other - though likely at discounted rates. Let's say they'd charge the general public $1000 to repair repair a valve cover gasket - well, the service department might charge the used car department, I don't know, $750 for the same repair. That $750 will have to be recouped when the car is sold off the used car lot.

Your research methodology for used cars is a bit different. You need to look at model year, make, features and doodads and mileage and see what good deals are in your target area. Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. ALWAYS pull a CarFax. Most dealerships provide them for free. This will tell you if the car has been hit (per insurance records), how regularly it has been maintained and how it has been used (private party, rental fleet, etc.). Personally, I buy used - 2 years or so - low mileage, never hit and I avoid cars that were rentals. Rentals are maintained well typically, but many rental customers abuse the hell out those cars.

To me, used cars are sold a bit more like a commodity - prices are set locally and are subject to the costs the dealer has in to acquire it on trade or from an auction - then what he has spent to get the car ready to sell (and warrant - used cars from dealers should come with some base warranty and the car has to be prepped for that). Most dealerships have a threshold for how long they'll keep used cars on the lot. If the car doesn't move in that time frame, they'll take their lumps and move it to a wholesaler for auction.

For used cars, check out autotrader.com and cars.com. Those are good places to start researching to see which models are selling for which prices in your area. You should also check out Kelly Blue Book online and the NADA website, too.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

That is correct. Pre-owned is something of the wild west of car sales. You simply can't know what the dealer has in the car.

This is correct. So many walk in unprepared and pay that 42k deal that Brad mentioned that the dealerships basically have zero in the car, or very very little. They sure as hell aren't losing money. It's why the dealerships have the big, nice buildings.

I just use wholesale bc I KNOW they don't have that in it. Try to get the NADA blackbook, it's what the dealers actually use. Your bank or credit union will have access.

The last lesbaru I bought my daughter had $18k on the window. I looked it up, wholesale was around 9.5, so I offered 10k. They said no, I left. They called back a couple of hours later and I wrote them the check. I pay cash, and that used to be a big thing, but they probably make so much money off the financing that it doesn't matter much anymore.

Also, try to find a salesman that has been there for a long while. You want to impress upon him that you aren't playing the game, but he can earn your longtime business if he is reasonable.

 

[Concrete Helmet]

I pay cash, and that used to be a big thing, but they probably make so much money off the financing that it doesn't matter much anymore.

My comeback as a salesperson to the whole "I'm paying cash" was "well the bank doesn't pay us in Clamshells"....of course selling boats I was doing backflips when they mentioned cash because financing even a 20K boat is more difficult than getting a 250K mortgage on a house.....

 

[Swamp Donkey]

My comeback as a salesperson to the whole "I'm paying cash" was "well the bank doesn't pay us in Clamshells"....of course selling boats I was doing backflips when they mentioned cash because financing even a 20K boat is more difficult than getting a 250K mortgage on a house.....

Yeah, plus now people are a bit reluctant to take a damn check anyway.

 

[NVGator]

@Gatorbreath @Swamp Donkey What is this one price stuff? I went to Car Max and a local Auto Nation dealer and they say their prices are set. They don't negotiate and state the price they put on the window is fair market value. Is that BS? If so, how do you get around that?

 

[Albert]

Just traded trucks Monday. End of month is key for sure. Just act like it doesn’t bother you to walk away and they will fall all over you.
Once I got a salesman we started texting through the negotiation on price. This is key, as it leaves a trail. They gave me top of KBB range, and came down a bit off their list as agreed. I’m financing a portion until after Jan 1, so had to deal with their finance dept. Got to the dealership and doing the deal Finance guy tried to slip 2k back in on theirs and 2k out on mine. Showed him the text message convo and told him he had 5 minutes to fix the paperwork while I got coffee or we were done, and my watch is fast. Had it done right before my coffee got lukewarm.
As far as financing, the best bet is to use your local bank, or even better a credit union if you are a member.

 

[NVGator]

Just traded trucks Monday. End of month is key for sure. Just act like it doesn’t bother you to walk away and they will fall all over you.
Once I got a salesman we started texting through the negotiation on price. This is key, as it leaves a trail. They gave me top of KBB range, and came down a bit off their list as agreed. I’m financing a portion until after Jan 1, so had to deal with their finance dept. Got to the dealership and doing the deal Finance guy tried to slip 2k back in on theirs and 2k out on mine. Showed him the text message convo and told him he had 5 minutes to fix the paperwork while I got coffee or we were done, and my watch is fast. Had it done right before my coffee got lukewarm.
As far as financing, the best bet is to use your local bank, or even better a credit union if you are a member.

What rate did you get? I just went to my credit union and they gave me 4.75% with a 0.25% discount if the LTV came in at 80% or less. I kind of thought that was high, still.

 

[Gatorbreath]

What is this one price stuff? I went to Car Max and a local Auto Nation dealer and they say their prices are set. They don't negotiate and state the price they put on the window is fair market value. Is that BS? If so, how do you get around that?

My only direct experience with CarMax was taking a Jeep Cherokee to one years ago to have them put a figure on it. The number they gave me was ridiculously low. I don't think I've been back to one of their points since.

I've always thought those of fixed price places as havens for people that either can't stomach negotiating with car salesmen or are too lazy to do their own legwork. The reality is, while you will never get a great deal in a shop like that, you're unlikely to get your head torn off, either. So it's relatively safe. There are a lot of people that simply can't deal with even thinking about dickering with a smarmy sales guy. I get that. There's no shame in that. CarMax (headquartered not 5 miles from where I'm typing this, by the way) has grown spectacularly with their fixed price model. So, there's a big market for that.

And I am not aware of any way around their pricing model. If you want to negotiate, then CarMax or AutoNation are not for you. You'd better head to a traditional dealership.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

@Gatorbreath @Swamp Donkey What is this one price stuff? I went to Car Max and a local Auto Nation dealer and they say their prices are set. They don't negotiate and state the price they put on the window is fair market value. Is that BS? If so, how do you get around that?

It's not the best deal, but everyone gets the same. They are fairly consistent.

As far as I know, there is no way around it. I have tried the walkaway thing and they did not in fact call later.

 

[Albert]

What rate did you get? I just went to my credit union and they gave me 4.75% with a 0.25% discount if the LTV came in at 80% or less. I kind of thought that was high, still.

That is kind of high. My Credit Union offers 3.31, but the app process is slow. I did my deal through the weekend so I went with the dealership - Bank of America- and got 4.3- but since I will pay it off in a month from now it really didn’t matter.

 

[URGatorBait]

at AAA, great credit will get you 3.24% on new, 3.44% on used. 60 month terms.

3.14% new and 3.34% used. 48 month terms.

 

[bradgator2]

I bought my last truck in February at a fixed sticker price dealer in Orlando. “Certainly there will be fees that will increase this price.” When I call them, they says it’s only the tag. That’s it, they promise. I was very, very skeptical.

The fixed price they listed was shockingly lower than anything I could find in the internet, was dead in line with the F150 websites. It was nearly $15,000 less than the same truck in Ocala.

Ok, the purchase is done before I even leave the house, but they will certainly screw me on the trade. Which wasnt going to be that much anyway. I never gave them a number I wanted and their first offer was a number right at private sale value.

So, it was the 1st time in my life that I bought and sold with zero negotiating. There was no reason to and they earned my business for life.

 

[URGatorBait]

I bought my last truck in February at a fixed sticker price dealer in Orlando. “Certainly there will be fees that will increase this price.” When I call them, they says it’s only the tag. That’s it, they promise. I was very, very skeptical.

The fixed price they listed was shockingly lower than anything I could find in the internet, was dead in line with the F150 websites. It was nearly $15,000 less than the same truck in Ocala.

Ok, the purchase is done before I even leave the house, but they will certainly screw me on the trade. Which wasnt going to be that much anyway. I never gave them a number I wanted and their first offer was a number right at private sale value.

So, it was the 1st time in my life that I bought and sold with zero negotiating. There was no reason to and they earned my business for life.

If I recall correctly...was it Mullinax?

I plan on using them for my oil changes and what not.

 

[bradgator2]

If I recall correctly...was it Mullinax?

I plan on using them for my oil changes and what not.

Yeah, Mullinax. Too far for me to get my service.

My theory on the inflated car prices my area is The Villages. I dont think these old people realize the power of internet research. It really has leveled the playing field for us.