Discussion: “The Brand Is Damaged”

Ocalaman

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There is absolutely no reason why Florida football shouldn't be a perennial Top 10 team. The money, alumni support, fan base, recruiting base, academics, location and past successes are all in place to regain the status we reached under Spurrier & Meyer. Meyer left a broken program (his own words) in the way of discipline, character and culture and the Muschamp hire (which was thought at the time to be brilliant) just didn't work out. And then that was followed by a horrendous hire by Foley in McElwain. Is Dan Mullen the answer? Time will tell. But with the right HBC, the University of Florida should be regularly competing for SEC and NCAA titles. The athletic dept. brand and the university brand is very strong, but the football brand, IMO, has been broken/damaged this entire decade. Time to get it fixed.
 

leogator

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I really don't care if the brand is damaged. All I want is for us to look respectable even while losing. I want us to be in the best physical shape we can be, know the plays, give 100% effort, be technically correct. I want roster balance, I want competent QBs. I never, ever want only 6 OLs in the roster or just one QB like in the past. 5*s, we have had 5* recently, what have they done for us? When you look like crap against UMass, when you let UMass push you around, when their QB looks better than yours, you have reached bottom.
 
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78

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This is the question.

I see no reason to think that they're concerned about anything other than still being mathematically in the run in October.

Foley and his minions despised every winning coach we've ever had, and loved the losers like Zooker and musChimp.

I still see Zero commitment to football. In fact the attitude is now baseball and softball come first and we'll get around a football if we get around to it. Some time. Maybe. Eventually. If you increase your giving by a lot. Maybe.
Yes and no. Foley and his minions became increasingly convinced over time in the righteousness of supporting all sports equally, men's and women's, as well as the notion that the all-sports trophy was the ultimate goal. The fallout was having football fall behind and not having a quick fix for getting it back on track.

And there we rest, the finest athletic department in the land top to bottom sans the program that matters most, football.
 

Gatorraid81

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All the people who like to talk about facts disappear when it comes to the topic of Kirby and UGA. He had a top 10 defense, won the SEC, and he had one of the best recruiting classes of all time this year. He can recruit and coach. He went toe to toe with Saban and Bama with Richt’s lesser rated recruiting classes. If Mullen is as bad as y’all say, then you’re whistling past the graveyard.

What Mullen has on Kirby is his history developing QBs. That is the great equalizer. That is how SOS overcame the talent gap between his teams and UGA. He simply outcoached the opposition. If Mullen can develop a QB and an OL he can get us back to competing at a high level. I know y’all dog Mullen’s recruiting, but his transition class has several players who have all-SEC potential. Grimes, Krull, Jones, Pierce, Dean, Reese, Pitts, Copeland, Chatfield, Langham, etc. You can win championships with guys like that.


I wonder how that championship game vs Bama would’ve turned out had Tua played from the first snap. Probably a double digit victory for Bama I think.
 

leogator

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Yes and no. Foley and his minions became increasingly convinced over time in the righteousness of supporting all sports equally, men's and women's, as well as the notion that the all-sports trophy was the ultimate goal. The fallout was having football fall behind and not having a quick fix for getting it back on track.

And there we rest, the finest athletic department in the land top to bottom sans the program that matters most, football.
Heck they were contributing money to the academic side to the tune of $10M/year instead of investing in facilities.
 

leogator

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I wonder how that championship game vs Bama would’ve turned out had Tua played from the first snap. Probably a double digit victory for Bama I think.
Amazing what you can do with an average QB when you have a dominant OL and a stable of good backs. Not to mention a dominant defense.
 
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Swamp Donkey

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Heck they were contributing money to the academic side to the tune of $10M/year instead of investing in facilities.
It has been way more than that. Up to 40m. AFTER spending up to 80m in football money on the nonrevenue sports.
 

T REX

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I'm not sure if I can articulate what I'm thinking but I guess I'm trying to expand on what you said. Does UF have a brand, or was is just a period of success? Florida football has always been middle of the pack until the stretch with the HBC and Meyer. There were good years but nothing sustained. Other teams have also had that flash of relevance that we enjoyed so much but over the past decade the Gators have returned to what they've always been - mediocre. Gator fans think that due to that period of success that UF is one of the elite programs but the litany of bad decisions over the past 10-15 years has doomed the program and taken it back to the pre-HBC days of being irrelevant. That's where we are. I think that's how the program is perceived nationally. It took two HOF coaches to drag UF out of mediocrity and they won't be leading the team out of the tunnel ever again. So sadly, I don't think the brand is broken so much as it has just regressed back to historical levels and the days of being able to capitalize on the period of success have been squandered.

Did you just regress us to the mean? Ouch.
 

gatorkev85

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How does one rationalize Texas then? That's a pretty good mirror of UF in a very fertile recruiting state. They haven't been relevant since Vince Young. You hire a coach to fix the DAMAGE. He either does or doesn't. Mullen either wins and recruits well or he's fired.
The problem is it's hard to win when you recruit to the level that's he's recruiting right now.
 

MADGator

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Did you just regress us to the mean? Ouch.

Yeah, I guess I did. The football we see now is what I grew up watching until I got to UF in the mid-80's. So it feels like, Damn! We're back there again? Gatornation knows UF should be an elite program (the operative phrase being "should be") but this feels like pre-HBC days. It took special men to pull the program out of the doldrums, and that's all I'll say about that.
 

Swamp Donkey

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Yeah, I guess I did. The football we see now is what I grew up watching until I got to UF in the mid-80's. So it feels like, Damn! We're back there again?
Yeah, 1979 all over again, except we have less talent, we arent the new and upcoming school everyone wants to attend and we didn't just hire Clemson's NC winning coach.
 

t-gator

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I really don't care if the brand is damaged. All I want is for us to look respectable even while losing. I want us to be in the best physical shape we can be, know the plays, give 100% effort, be technically correct. I want roster balance, I want competent QBs. I never, ever want only 6 OLs in the roster or just one QB like in the past. 5*s, we have had 5* recently, what have they done for us? When you look like crap against UMass, when you let UMass push you around, when their QB looks better than yours, you have reached bottom.
That same umass team gave Dan Mullen and Mississippi state all they wanted. Was actually leading at half.
 

78

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Yeah, 1979 all over again, except we have less talent, we arent the new and upcoming school everyone wants to attend and we didn't just hire Clemson's NC winning coach.
Who knew we hired Danny Ford? Does that mean we get to claim the '84 SEC title after all?
 

InstiGATOR1

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I'm not sure if I can articulate what I'm thinking but I guess I'm trying to expand on what you said. Does UF have a brand, or was is just a period of success? Florida football has always been middle of the pack until the stretch with the HBC and Meyer. There were good years but nothing sustained. Other teams have also had that flash of relevance that we enjoyed so much but over the past decade the Gators have returned to what they've always been - mediocre. Gator fans think that due to that period of success that UF is one of the elite programs but the litany of bad decisions over the past 10-15 years has doomed the program and taken it back to the pre-HBC days of being irrelevant. That's where we are. I think that's how the program is perceived nationally. It took two HOF coaches to drag UF out of mediocrity and they won't be leading the team out of the tunnel ever again. So sadly, I don't think the brand is broken so much as it has just regressed back to historical levels and the days of being able to capitalize on the period of success have been squandered.

Florida football had its first season in 1906, here is the number of electoral votes Florida had in each election since then:

1908: 5, no other state in with a program now in the SEC had less than 9
1912: 6
1916: 6
1920: 6
1924: 6
1928: 6
1932: 7, SC still has 8 making FL last still among states with SEC programs today
1936: 7
1940: 7
1944: 8, SC still has 8 so FL is still tied for last and is still last among states with SEC programs then.
1948: 8
1952: 10, MS has dropped to 8 along with SC and AR, meaning FL is bigger than 3 current SEC programs and tied with LA and KY. Of course FL is only bigger than one state that then has an SEC program.
1956: 10
1960: 10
1964: 14, FL suddenly has more electoral votes than any SEC state other than TX that currently has an SEC school and of course all states then with SEC schools.
1968: 14
1972: 17
1976: 17
1980: 17
1984: 21
1988: 21
1992: 25
1996: 25
2000: 25
2004: 27
2008: 27
2012: 29
2016: 29

So that fact that UF was not consistently good in football from 1906 to 1960 when Florida was one of the smallest states which had an SEC school is irrelevant to the state of Florida football today when Florida is one of two mega states that has SEC programs.

I have heard this argument about Florida football before. It just ignores the facts and ignores the resources that UF has.
 
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InstiGATOR1

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The Football brand is definitely damaged. That damage was caused by an AD, Foley, who looked for the diamond in the rough when he hired football coaches. He never understood that you have to hire the best... not someone that you think can turn into the best after learning on the job. Now, we're on our third coach since Meyer left and I am hoping Dan Mullen can return us to championship but, his overall losing SEC Record (33 - 39), his 2 - 15 record vs. ranked opponents and the staff he brought in make me think we in for more of the same that we saw from MooseDump and Butters...

The problem with Foley was not that he was looking for diamonds in the rough. The problem with Foley is that he never understood UF football and UF's fan base.

This program was built on Ray Grave's offensive teams. The Graves era is exemplified by SOS winning the Heisman and the Super Sophs. The Dickey teams were exemplified by Wes Chandler and other offensive skill players. The Pell/Hall years were exemplified by Emmitt Smith and again other offensive skill players. You know about the Spurrier years that were exemplified by QBs like Wuerffel, Grossman and Matthews. You know about the Meyer years that were exemplified by Tebow and Harvin.

Curiously, these players that set the tone for UF football since the modern era of football began are just the type of players, offensive skill players, that FL produces. Sure defense is equally important and Florida also produces big guys that can run. But it is no accident that UF football was shaped by the kinds of athletes that are in the state of Florida. It is also no accident that that style of play at UF attracted Spurrier, Matthews, Grossman and Harvin from out of state to play UF style offensive football.

Facing this history, facing this talent base, facing this fan base, Foley decided he knew better than UF history. He knew the way to win at UF, despite the Pell example, was to copy UAL. Not surprisingly it has led to 10 years in the desert not playing to UF's strengths. Had Foley just understood a bit about UF history and what made UF football and what the fan base would tolerate, UF football might be in a much better state today. So sure the brand is damaged. Foley by not understanding the brand, the history of UF etc set out to damage the brand and succeeded.
 
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ChiefGator

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No. Not Vandy and Kentucky. But middle of the pack. Which makes me want to puke.

Here – let’s put this in perspective for you. My youngest son is 11 years old. And he has never seen us not play like trash.

The new kids we are recruiting this year have never seen what Florida used to be. They were in third grade the last time the Florida gators were relevant.

Apparently your son only watches football, perhaps you need to expand his view.
 

ChiefGator

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How does one rationalize Texas then? That's a pretty good mirror of UF in a very fertile recruiting state. They haven't been relevant since Vince Young. You hire a coach to fix the DAMAGE. He either does or doesn't. Mullen either wins and recruits well or he's fired.

And their "brand" is still pretty good. They have their own network http://www.espn.com/longhornnetwork/

They raise a lot of money too. http://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-texas-longhorns-2017-11

Their brand is relevant, and so is ours. Now could say football and womens bball improve a lot, sure. Men's bball has some room for improvement as well.

We did not get one of the Jump football uniforms for being irrelevant as a brand either.
 

ChiefGator

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The problem with Foley was not that he was looking for diamonds in the rough. The problem with Foley is that he never understood UF football and UF's fan base.

This program was built on Ray Grave's offensive teams. The Graves era is exemplified by SOS winning the Heisman and the Super Sophs. The Dickey teams were exemplified by Wes Chandler and other offensive skill players. The Pell/Hall years were exemplified by Emmitt Smith and again other offensive skill players. You know about the Spurrier years that were exemplified by QBs like Wuerffel, Grossman and Matthews. You know about the Meyer years that were exemplified by Tebow and Harvin.

Curiously, these players that set the tone for UF football since the modern era of football began are just the type of players, offensive skill players, that FL produces. Sure defense is equally important and Florida also produces big guys that can run. But it is no accident that UF football was shaped by the kinds of athletes that are in the state of Florida. It is also no accident that that style of play at UF attracted Spurrier, Matthews, Grossman and Harvin from out of state to play UF style offensive football.

Facing this history, facing this talent base, facing this fan base, Foley decided he knew better than UF history. He knew the way to win at UF, despite the Pell example, was to copy UAL. Not surprisingly it has led to 10 years in the desert not playing to UF's strengths. Had Foley just understood a bit about UF history and what made UF football and what the fan base would tolerate, UF football might be in a much better state today. So sure the brand is damaged. Foley by not understanding the brand, the history of UF etc set out to damage the brand and succeeded.

You really think a person who started out selling tickets did not understand football or our fans? Now I agree he made some bad (in retrospect) choices for coaches. Football is probably the worst, but women's basketball is right there as well.

Our "brand" is not where we would like it to be, but it is far from "damaged".
 

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