Kobe Bryant killed in helicopter crash

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I read yesterday somewhere that the craft came within 20-30 feet of clearing the hill into which it crashed.
 

Zambo

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The pilot was an instrument rated pilot and the helo was an instrument certified aircraft, but these guys spend very little time actually flying in instrument conditions. As a matter of fact, the company that chartered the helo isn't allowed to fly IFR (instrument flight rules) flights. The reason they do this is because they would have to pay for the training and certification, which isn't worth it in a place where the vast majority of the time the weather is beautiful. As a result these guys get very little if any time actually controlling an aircraft in the clouds where you can't see. I would be surprised if they find any other conclusion than that the pilot tried to turn around when the clouds started closing in, inadvertently going IMC (into the clouds), and got disoriented and lost control of the aircraft.

So why not just fly on instruments? Well that pretty much negates the whole reason for having a helicopter. They are basically flying cars. They pick you up near where you are, follow roads and other visible landmarks, and drop you off near where you want to go. If you have to fly from airport to airport its faster to get in a small plane than take a helo. The ATC controllers can't just give you an IFR flight plan to land at the soccer field where your kid's game is, they have a minimum altitude they can send you down to which is higher than all of the surrounding terrain. The only way to go lower than that is to fly a charted approach to an airfield.

It will be interesting to see if the investigation produces any evidence of outside pressure on the pilot to push the safety envelope. It sounds easy to sit back and say that if something is unsafe you're just not going to do it, but when the boss man is breathing down your neck it does make a difference. Same thing happened at my old company a couple years before I started working there. Bossy aircraft owner put tons of pressure on the company and the pilots to fly him and 14 other people into Aspen when the conditions weren't acceptable, so they did it anyway and they all paid for it with their lives.
2001 Avjet Aspen crash - Wikipedia
 

soflagator

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The pilot was an instrument rated pilot and the helo was an instrument certified aircraft, but these guys spend very little time actually flying in instrument conditions. As a matter of fact, the company that chartered the helo isn't allowed to fly IFR (instrument flight rules) flights. The reason they do this is because they would have to pay for the training and certification, which isn't worth it in a place where the vast majority of the time the weather is beautiful. As a result these guys get very little if any time actually controlling an aircraft in the clouds where you can't see. I would be surprised if they find any other conclusion than that the pilot tried to turn around when the clouds started closing in, inadvertently going IMC (into the clouds), and got disoriented and lost control of the aircraft.

It will be interesting to see if the investigation produces any evidence of outside pressure on the pilot to push the safety envelope. It sounds easy to sit back and say that if something is unsafe you're just not going to do it, but when the boss man is breathing down your neck it does make a difference. Same thing happened at my old company a couple years before I started working there. Bossy aircraft owner put tons of pressure on the company and the pilots to fly him and 14 other people into Aspen when the conditions weren't acceptable, so they did it anyway and they all paid for it with their lives.
2001 Avjet Aspen crash - Wikipedia

Basically spatial disorientation, no? I did some research for a paper a while back on that. As someone who doesn't fly, it's beyond scary to even read about. Pretty sure it's also the likely cause of JFK Jr's crash.

Power and influence or not, I can't imagine completely disregarding safety just to impose my will and get somewhere(non-emergency). I'm too overly analytical, and I know I'd spend the final minutes/seconds of my life regretting the decision.
 

Swamp Donkey

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Power and influence or not, I can't imagine completely disregarding safety just to impose my will and get somewhere(non-emergency). .
Yeah I think you're being overly analytical.

Coming from the personal protection side of it, I can tell you that VIPs OFTEN COMPLETELY disregard safety putting themselves, their families, their staff and their protective personnel in terribly unsafe positions.
 

Zambo

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Basically spatial disorientation, no? I did some research for a paper a while back on that. As someone who doesn't fly, it's beyond scary to even read about. Pretty sure it's also the likely cause of JFK Jr's crash.

Power and influence or not, I can't imagine completely disregarding safety just to impose my will and get somewhere(non-emergency). I'm too overly analytical, and I know I'd spend the final minutes/seconds of my life regretting the decision.
The more common term is vertigo. You have no idea which way is up. Coming from the fighter community, the worst would be when you are flying as someone's wingman in formation and you go into the clouds. The other aircraft is your sole reference, as he flies on instruments you just follow along. There have been times when I felt as though we were practically upside down when in fact we were straight and level. I always tried as the lead aircraft to be straight and level when we entered a cloud so as to keep the wingman's vertigo to a minimum.
 

soflagator

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The more common term is vertigo. You have no idea which way is up. Coming from the fighter community, the worst would be when you are flying as someone's wingman in formation and you go into the clouds. The other aircraft is your sole reference, as he flies on instruments you just follow along. There have been times when I felt as though we were practically upside down when in fact we were straight and level. I always tried as the lead aircraft to be straight and level when we entered a cloud so as to keep the wingman's vertigo to a minimum.

I'm flying to NY on Monday. Not sure why I ventured into this thread at all. Definite bad decision on my part.
 

Zambo

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The thing people often don't understand about aircraft is how you create your own gravity and how that affects your perception. When you pull any amount of G (G stands for gravity), the little hairs in your inner ear get pulled in that direction by the acceleration force. Those hairs are used to being pulled straight toward the earth due to gravity, but when a plane is pulling any G they are being pulled in the opposite direction. With visual reference to the horizon this is no big deal but when you can't see anything your brain easily gets confused as to which way is up.

One of the best visual demonstrations of G force being controlled by the pilot is this old video from a famed test pilot named Bob Hoover.

 

Captain Sasquatch

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I guess the one sort of "bright side" to all this is the passengers probably never knew what hit them. They didn't have the terror of knowing they were about to crash and die, which to me is the worst part about envisioning an airplane or helicopter crash.
 

Jbossgator8

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Share your favorite Mamba story when you met, hang out, and/or hit it off.
 

78

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I was a 5-foot-2 Asian in Lower Merion at the time. I’d go for the ball and inadvertently slap Kobe in the kneecap. It ended right about there.
 

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I guess the one sort of "bright side" to all this is the passengers probably never knew what hit them. They didn't have the terror of knowing they were about to crash and die, which to me is the worst part about envisioning an airplane or helicopter crash.
I would like to think this as well but I am sure they could see how poor the visibility was and undoubtedly felt the rises and falls of the helicopter. They may not of known they were barreling towards a hill but, sadly, I am sure they well aware of how precarious their situation was.
 

SeabeeGator

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The thing people often don't understand about aircraft is how you create your own gravity and how that affects your perception. When you pull any amount of G (G stands for gravity), the little hairs in your inner ear get pulled in that direction by the acceleration force. Those hairs are used to being pulled straight toward the earth due to gravity, but when a plane is pulling any G they are being pulled in the opposite direction. With visual reference to the horizon this is no big deal but when you can't see anything your brain easily gets confused as to which way is up.

One of the best visual demonstrations of G force being controlled by the pilot is this old video from a famed test pilot named Bob Hoover.


I have no idea why but watching that guy pour the tea made me almost queasy. I’m guessing its because my brain was having difficulty registering why the tea was pouring normally while the background was spinning. Thanks for the insight in this thread.
 

Zambo

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I have no idea why but watching that guy pour the tea made me almost queasy. I’m guessing its because my brain was having difficulty registering why the tea was pouring normally while the background was spinning. Thanks for the insight in this thread.
Yeah the thing is that if he had performed this maneuver in the clouds you probably wouldn't even know that you had done a barrel roll.
 

SeabeeGator

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Yeah the thing is that if he had performed this maneuver in the clouds you probably wouldn't even know that you had done a barrel roll.
Im guessing that would have been exceedingly dangerous at the time of filming. I’m sure the instruments were not that advanced at the time.
 

Swamp Donkey

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The thing people often don't understand about aircraft is how you create your own gravity and how that affects your perception.
I was going to make a joke about Marine Corps wives making their own gravity also but I won't do that.

I have a question about a speed.

I know he tried, if I understand it correctly, to go higher and was told they had commercial traffic in the way and then he asked for flight following and was advised he was too low for radar assistance. I assume that's the little bump up to 2000 feet likely because the fog was so bad and he was looking for a clear patch.

I don't understand much about helicopters and I'm wondering if there's a reason why he was flooring it. I assume going slow in helicopter probably burns more fuel but if Wikipedia is correct he was almost at max speed. aircraft rarely traveled at Max speed, correct?
 

SeabeeGator

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500 foot drop in 15 seconds... wow. That’s 33 ft/sec. @Zambo - does your body feel the difference between a drop like that and a rise at a similar rate? I just imagine feeling “your stomach in your throat” while dropping and feeling “sucked into your chair” while rising. Would 15 seconds be enough time to register and react to that drop?
 

Zambo

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I was going to make a joke about Marine Corps wives making their own gravity also but I won't do that.

I have a question about a speed.

I know he tried, if I understand it correctly, to go higher and was told they had commercial traffic in the way and then he asked for flight following and was advised he was too low for radar assistance. I assume that's the little bump up to 2000 feet likely because the fog was so bad and he was looking for a clear patch.

I don't understand much about helicopters and I'm wondering if there's a reason why he was flooring it. I assume going slow in helicopter probably burns more fuel but if Wikipedia is correct he was almost at max speed. aircraft rarely traveled at Max speed, correct?
I'm not a helo guy so take it for what its worth. I think for a helo that max speed and cruising speed are often the same. The limiting factor for a helo is the speed of the rotor blades, specifically because the as the aircraft moves forward, the airspeed is added to the advancing blade and subtracted from the retreating blade. Eventually you get to the point where the retreating blade isn't making enough lift and the rotor stalls. So something below that airspeed would be the max the helo could fly. I don't think its uncommon for them to spend time very near this speed however.

Now, as to why he was going so fast in those conditions I couldn't begin to speculate. I'm not sure how fast he was cruising but it sure seems like it would make sense to slow down when the going gets tough. The speed at impact could have simply been a result of being in a dive. Anyway, things like excess airspeed are often signs of loss of situational awareness. Just look at the Max crashes and how fast those pilots were going. I promise they weren't going that fast on purpose, they just left the power up and got going so fast they couldn't control the plane any more.

As for radar advisories, what he was asking for is called "flight following." All this means is that he's still navigating himself around, but talking to ATC so they can point out other aircraft or potential airspace problems. This is different than being on an instrument flight plan because then ATC has control over you and gives you clearances (orders) to fly certain headings, airspeeds, and altitudes in order to get you where you're going but also deconflict you with other aircraft. I'm sure the pilot was hesitant to climb high enough to accept instrument handling because IFR flying was not part of the company opspec. Opspec is the agreement that any company that flies airplanes has with the FAA on how they are going to operate and the training and regulations required to do so.
 

JCTow

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Terrible but funny as hell. I guess that makes me terrible..oh well
 

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