Mortgage rates

Concrete Helmet

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He also said that with the volume of refinancing they are doing they don't want any part of the extra work associated with it. Makes sense they would charge a premium.

I'll let you know what the title fees are from the closing and you can tell me if I'm getting ripped off.
The title company does all the work on the subordination so that's BS....Your title premium is a state regulated fee....make sure you give them your owners policy and survey to get a re issue rate on the title premium and save the cost of a new survey if you have one. Yes check the additional title fees like the search and closing fees to make sure their in line(there's not usually a big difference from agent to agent but let me know)
 

alcoholica

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I don't really pay much attention to the consumer side of the bank. Too many disclosures and BS, with ticky tack little sh1t. Anyway, if you are getting a lower rate to take cash out, they are likely just pushing to get volume on the books and a lot of people will find something to spend it on. Always boils down to money in some shape or fashion. Quite a few banks will backdoor prepayment fees on you too, just an FYI.

Concerning the housing, it's going to drop. I'm anticipating early 2022, but that may get pushed further. The longer it takes the deeper the crash. What people didn't realize about the last dump is the inventory tied up in the court system. So rather than a stiff hit and move on, it was a slow bleed. It just wears on people. SE FL had a 18 month turnover on foreclosures in 2011. In the Gainesville area, we were around 10 months or better on a 5-6 month process. Lots of things were contributing.

Needless to say, no bueno, but we're not seeing some of the same "creative" financing issues as back then. But I expect to see 2013 prices, depending on property type. But that could be worse, just depends. Different profile set this time, different variables. Also, don't forget, we had a major stock market hit before the downturn before. Not a for sure thing, because I don't think we've got the derivative exposure profile, but I think it would make sense.

upload_2021-1-25_22-54-32.png
 

Bernardo de la Paz

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Here's a chart on price to rent through June:

iu


Other than rents, the second biggest variable that affects prices is interest rates. I think the worst case scenario for the real estate market would be a recession driving down rent combined with rising interest rates due to debt issues. That said, we're still a decent amount below the 2005/2006 bubble.
 

BMF

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I don't really pay much attention to the consumer side of the bank. Too many disclosures and BS, with ticky tack little sh1t. Anyway, if you are getting a lower rate to take cash out, they are likely just pushing to get volume on the books and a lot of people will find something to spend it on. Always boils down to money in some shape or fashion. Quite a few banks will backdoor prepayment fees on you too, just an FYI.

Concerning the housing, it's going to drop. I'm anticipating early 2022, but that may get pushed further. The longer it takes the deeper the crash. What people didn't realize about the last dump is the inventory tied up in the court system. So rather than a stiff hit and move on, it was a slow bleed. It just wears on people. SE FL had a 18 month turnover on foreclosures in 2011. In the Gainesville area, we were around 10 months or better on a 5-6 month process. Lots of things were contributing.

Needless to say, no bueno, but we're not seeing some of the same "creative" financing issues as back then. But I expect to see 2013 prices, depending on property type. But that could be worse, just depends. Different profile set this time, different variables. Also, don't forget, we had a major stock market hit before the downturn before. Not a for sure thing, because I don't think we've got the derivative exposure profile, but I think it would make sense.

29750

Good stuff here alco. I'm in firm agreement that there's a correction (or crash) coming. I think we would have already seen it had Covid not happened. Covid delayed it (w/ the huge drop in interest rates, people looking to move out of blue states, no inventory because many are afraid to move, and the stimulus protections for foreclosures & evictions). I previously felt 2nd half of 2021 would be the start, but you're probably right that we won't see it until 2022.

I read a blog (financial samurai) where he predicts once we get an "all-clear" (enough people getting the vaccine and numbers/cases dropping) we'll see these scared liberals making moves on real estate, and it could be a free for all (prices climbing even more)....but this will be short lived, like 3 months. So early 2022 could be the start...and summer 2022 we'll be feeling it.
 

alcoholica

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Good stuff here alco. I'm in firm agreement that there's a correction (or crash) coming. I think we would have already seen it had Covid not happened. Covid delayed it (w/ the huge drop in interest rates, people looking to move out of blue states, no inventory because many are afraid to move, and the stimulus protections for foreclosures & evictions). I previously felt 2nd half of 2021 would be the start, but you're probably right that we won't see it until 2022.

I read a blog (financial samurai) where he predicts once we get an "all-clear" (enough people getting the vaccine and numbers/cases dropping) we'll see these scared liberals making moves on real estate, and it could be a free for all (prices climbing even more)....but this will be short lived, like 3 months. So early 2022 could be the start...and summer 2022 we'll be feeling it.

Agreed, I’m listing Real estate now, and have some investments I’m looking to liquidate post March to take advantage of long term capital gains, when I feel like the timing is right. But I’m looking to be very liquid going into the summer and only making market bids on daily rebounds Or value purchases. Of course strategies change, but I’m going to realize some nice real estate profits with eyes on re-entry after a drop. Don’t want to F up a position on what is certainly going to be a vulnerable market.
 

alcoholica

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Here's a chart on price to rent through June:

iu


Other than rents, the second biggest variable that affects prices is interest rates. I think the worst case scenario for the real estate market would be a recession driving down rent combined with rising interest rates due to debt issues. That said, we're still a decent amount below the 2005/2006 bubble.
Yeah, there were multiple factors at play back then that don’t appear present today. But FOMO is ramping up. I still expect 2013 ish prices, which will still yield massive discounts for folks.

crazy thing is, I think mtg rates could stay pretty low and have those market drops.

you have to think NYC and Cali real estate is going to be a battle ground for cash investors
 

BMF

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This is from a financial blog I read, a different take on the real estate forecast:

Why the Real Estate Boom Has a Decade to Run

Lately, I have been getting a lot of calls from concerned readers worried that we might be going into another 2008-2011 style real estate crash, when home prices cratered by 50%-70%, once the pandemic ends.It’s not going to happen and there are a dozen reasons why. Worst case, I expect a short, shallow pause in the market, followed by a ballistic move to new all-time highs.

If you had any doubt, look no further than the superheated bond market which took interest rates to new all-time lows, sparking a refi boom in the process.

You see, there is a method to my madness.

Apple (AAPL) is planning on building a second new research and development campus that will need 20,000 new high-tech workers. Google (GOOGL) plans to spend $13 billion on real estate acquisitions, and Amazon (AMZN) just flushed out of New York, will move those 25,000 jobs to more hospitable climates.

It is all fresh fuel for a continuation in the bull market for US residential real estate, not just for this year, but for another decade, or more. More high paying jobs means more big spending home buyers.

Although prices seem high now, I am convinced that we are only at the beginning of a long-term secular bull market in housing. If you don’t believe me, check out the sky-high prices in Shanghai, Vancouver, and Sydney Australia.

Anything you purchase now is going to make you look like a genius ten years down the road.

The best is yet to come.

The big driver will be demographics, of course.

From 2022 onward, 65 million Gen Xers will be joined by 85 million late-blooming Millennials in a bidding war for the same houses. That will create a market of 150 million buyers, unprecedented in the history of the American real estate market.

In the meantime, 80 million baby boomers, net sellers, and downsizers of homes for the past decade will slowly die off and disappear from the scene as a negative influence. Only one-third are still working.

The first boomer, Kathleen Casey-Kirschling, born seconds after midnight on January 1, 1946, just turned 75 years old. A former schoolteacher, she took early retirement at 62.

The real fat on the fire here is that 10 million homes went missing in action this decade, thanks to the financial crisis. They were never built.

This is the result of the bankruptcy of several homebuilding companies and the new-found ultra-conservatism of the survivors, like DR Horton (DHI), Lennar Homes (LEN), and Pulte Group (PHM).

Did I mention that all of this makes this sector a screaming “BUY”?

Talk to any real estate agent and they will complain about the shortage of inventory (except in Chicago, the slowest growing market in the country).

Prices are so high already that flippers have been squeezed out of the market for good. Bottom feeders, like hedge funds buying at the bankruptcy auctions, are a distant memory. Some, like BlackRock (BLK), now own more than 40,000 homes and are the biggest landlords in the county.

And let’s face it, ultra-low interest rates aren’t going to be here forever. Borrow at 3.0% today against a long-term 3.0% inflation rate, and you are essentially getting your house for free.

The rising rents that are turning Millennials from renters to buyers may be the first sign of real inflation beyond the increasingly dear healthcare and higher education that we’re are already seeing.

And Millennials are having kids that demand a bigger living space! Who knew?
 

alcoholica

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So the millennials going into their 40's will be purchasing their first home?

I remember at the end of 2007, I started low balling homes, because I thought the market was inflated. Some of those homes went for less than I offered (months or years later), but most just went off the market. But one thing remained true the entire time..."next quarter is supposed to turn around, so buy now". It took a few years before I purchased a distressed listing....way less than the banks had on it. Yes, it had multiple mortgages.

These a-holes are just selling. Rent stats don't mean much when so many rentals are off the market due to COVID. Same with home inventories. The guy could be right, but that's not where I'm betting. Especially since people are quietly freaking out in G'ville, because the apartment market is oversaturated. Just waiting on the construction to finish.
 

LagoonGator68

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The real fat on the fire here is that 10 million homes went missing in action this decade, thanks to the financial crisis. They were never built.

This is the result of the bankruptcy of several homebuilding companies and the new-found ultra-conservatism of the survivors, like DR Horton (DHI), Lennar Homes (LEN), and Pulte Group (PHM).

Did I mention that all of this makes this sector a screaming “BUY”?

Talk to any real estate agent and they will complain about the shortage of inventory (except in Chicago, the slowest growing market in the country).

BINGO!
 

BMF

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So the millennials going into their 40's will be purchasing their first home?

I remember at the end of 2007, I started low balling homes, because I thought the market was inflated. Some of those homes went for less than I offered (months or years later), but most just went off the market. But one thing remained true the entire time..."next quarter is supposed to turn around, so buy now". It took a few years before I purchased a distressed listing....way less than the banks had on it. Yes, it had multiple mortgages.

These a-holes are just selling. Rent stats don't mean much when so many rentals are off the market due to COVID. Same with home inventories. The guy could be right, but that's not where I'm betting. Especially since people are quietly freaking out in G'ville, because the apartment market is oversaturated. Just waiting on the construction to finish.

This is definitely one of the very few takes that I've seen saying real estate will keep rolling. He makes very valid points. I just can't see prices continue to climb the way they are, at least not much longer (12-18 months?). The salaries/incomes just don't match, although interest rates are very, very low.

We're looking to sell in the next few months....two properties. Unless we find something we feel is a homerun, we're not sure what to do. As I said earlier, we may end up buying a house to live in for a year or so then use it as a rental property when we find our long-term home.
 

alcoholica

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This is definitely one of the very few takes that I've seen saying real estate will keep rolling. He makes very valid points. I just can't see prices continue to climb the way they are, at least not much longer (12-18 months?). The salaries/incomes just don't match, although interest rates are very, very low.

We're looking to sell in the next few months....two properties. Unless we find something we feel is a homerun, we're not sure what to do. As I said earlier, we may end up buying a house to live in for a year or so then use it as a rental property when we find our long-term home.
Something to think about. Many local home prices are being listed for more than they sold for during 2005-2007. Just food for thought
 

LagoonGator68

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Nationwide huge shortage of single family homes
 

BMF

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Something to think about. Many local home prices are being listed for more than they sold for during 2005-2007. Just food for thought

In many markets homes are now selling higher than their 2005-07 prices. What's your thoughts on current home prices? I know you said you think we'll see 2013 prices after there's a correction. I think that's too aggressive, I'm thinking more like 2016 to 2018 prices. This current run up started sometime in 2017 (imo), could have been earlier.
 

LagoonGator68

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The real fat on the fire here is that 10 million homes went missing in action this decade, thanks to the financial crisis. They were never built.

This is the result of the bankruptcy of several homebuilding companies and the new-found ultra-conservatism of the survivors, like DR Horton (DHI), Lennar Homes (LEN), and Pulte GroUp”
 

Concrete Helmet

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So the millennials going into their 40's will be purchasing their first home?
Well their SLD may be forgiven which would free up their DTI....it is said that 56% of people between 18-29 are still living with heir parents so prospective buyers are there.....but I agree with your prior post that there will be a short down turn (think of douching the market) not as dramatic as 2008-2012 but some inventory will be shaken free and some downward price adjustment for a year or 2...
 

Detroitgator

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Well their SLD may be forgiven which would free up their DTI....it is said that 56% of people between 18-29 are still living with heir parents so prospective buyers are there.....but I agree with your prior post that there will be a short down turn (think of douching the market) not as dramatic as 2008-2012 but some inventory will be shaken free and some downward price adjustment for a year or 2...
Yeah, we have to forgive debt.... to create debt. That's where we're at.
 

BMF

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Well their SLD may be forgiven which would free up their DTI....it is said that 56% of people between 18-29 are still living with heir parents so prospective buyers are there.....but I agree with your prior post that there will be a short down turn (think of douching the market) not as dramatic as 2008-2012 but some inventory will be shaken free and some downward price adjustment for a year or 2...

Well, the first millennials are turning 40 this year. I think that's more the target (not the 18-29 year olds), those approaching 40 that have never been home owners. They are in FOMO territory, plus they're have kids (many millennials have waited into their 30's to have their first child/children).

We found a lot in Tampa for $225k that we're thinking about buying, but wife wants to lay eyes on it first and drive the neighborhood....so it'll probably be sold before we can get a chance to look at it. The market in Tampa is ridiculous (south Tampa). St. Pete is about 15-20% cheaper for similar homes in similar areas (we prefer Tampa, right now).
 

alcoholica

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In many markets homes are now selling higher than their 2005-07 prices. What's your thoughts on current home prices? I know you said you think we'll see 2013 prices after there's a correction. I think that's too aggressive, I'm thinking more like 2016 to 2018 prices. This current run up started sometime in 2017 (imo), could have been earlier.
Two thoughts:

1) there’s likely some inflation that has occurred since 2007, but it isn’t that much. The market back then was way more volatile and robust. I’m not hearing of people buying and selling the same day, condo conversions, etc in today’s market. You do have a lot of NY/NJ folks coming to FL and scoffing at the prices. Just because people overpay doesn’t mean prices won’t drop.

2) the longer it takes to rip the band aid off, the slower and deeper the hit. That’s why I say 2013-2014. This real estate hit will be slow and sustained. At some point you’ll have cash buyers waiting patiently.
 

BMF

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Two thoughts:

1) there’s likely some inflation that has occurred since 2007, but it isn’t that much. The market back then was way more volatile and robust. I’m not hearing of people buying and selling the same day, condo conversions, etc in today’s market. You do have a lot of NY/NJ folks coming to FL and scoffing at the prices. Just because people overpay doesn’t mean prices won’t drop.

2) the longer it takes to rip the band aid off, the slower and deeper the hit. That’s why I say 2013-2014. This real estate hit will be slow and sustained. At some point you’ll have cash buyers waiting patiently.

I know several people sitting on cash waiting for a crash (or correction). If 2013-14 prices comeback that would be a huge hit (for those who bought after). My wife loves to follow RE prices. What's amazing is most homes bought between 2011 and 2015 didn't move much (a 2015 purchase was not much higher than a 2011 purchase - i.e. somebody buying in 2011 wouldn't have made much profit selling the same house in 2015). The big jump seemed to happen in 2017, in most markets. I've seen homes bought in 2019 selling for 50% more than the purchase price (with very little renovation). I hate to rent (after we sell), but I'd hate to end up holding the bag for 10 years waiting to get to even.
 

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