Pope under fire

Discussion in 'Politics' started by g8orbill, Aug 25, 2018.

  1. g8orbill

    g8orbill OldGator
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    • secgator

      secgator Well-Known Member

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      I'm not Catholic, and I don't want to criticize the Catholic Church as a whole....but they have sure have had a long history of those problems which have gone unaddressed far too long. He's not helping matters.
       
    • gatorplank

      gatorplank Well-Known Member

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      I feel bad for Catholic apologists like 92. The Catholic Church is becoming harder and harder to defend each time the Pope opens his mouth.

      But, hey, each time the Catholic Church slips up it is an opportunity that the Holy Spirit can use to enlighten Catholics with respect to the spiritual deception they are sitting under.

      And usually, the response generated by that is look at Protestant preacher A, B, C, and D. Sure there are Swaggarts, Hinn’s, etc that claim the name of Christ. But here is the thing: as a Protestant the object of my faith is Jesus Christ and his word. It is not a fallible man. And it is not a church. So the Protestant faith does not stand on its clergy, it stands on its Savior, Jesus Christ. As long as the Savior and His word abide there will always be a Protestant faith. Not so with the Catholic Church. If the Catholic church falls so does the whole Catholic faith.
       
      • stephenPE

        stephenPE Senior Member
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        The problem with the Catholic Church is this hierarchy of power all the way down to the parish priest. Then throw in the sexual thing of abstinence and you have an easy mess in the making. Most human beings have a sex drive. Without it we are not here. It is crazy to think these young men (and even women) should deny their humanity and remain chaste their whole lives. Then crimes are committed and NOT REPORTED to the police. Everybody in power that knew about the abuse and DID NOT call the police should go to jail. No if ands or buts.
        btw Urban is Catholic even named for a pope.
         
      • Tay Bang

        Tay Bang I might have been mean to Byrd
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        Mafioso. With more money. At least the Mafioso executes it’s perverts.
         
        • gatorev12

          gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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          You speak from a profound ignorance of the Catechism and who the center of the Catholic faith is. The Pope *is* just a man, after all and Catholics are free to disagree with him on spiritual matters if they've done their homework and have a good-faith" reason for disagreement.

          This may come as a shock to you: but Catholics believe in Jesus and in the Scriptures. It's what kept the Church alive during centuries of organized attempts to stamp out the faith and its leaders.
           
          • Tay Bang

            Tay Bang I might have been mean to Byrd
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            My take is the Catholic Church attracts the deviants, not create deviancy via abstinence.
             
            • gatorev12

              gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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              What the Pope actually said:

              He also acknowledged that the scandals all over the world are a "betrayal of trust." I fail to see what's "disgraceful" or "deflecting" in those words.

              I guess some people will never be satisfied.
               
              • stephenPE

                stephenPE Senior Member
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                You sound like the criminal about banks. He said they went there cause that is where the money is. I think you are probably right about many of them.
                 
                • Tay Bang

                  Tay Bang I might have been mean to Byrd
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                  They are just words. Meaningless words.
                   
                • gatorev12

                  gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                  Do you expect him to have time-traveling abilities, or something? He can't change the past. He can acknowledge what happened, apologize for it, and takes steps to prevent it from happening again.

                  The Church had a problem for a long time--no argument there. After the scandals first started breaking in the early 2000s, the Church *did* take corrective action (and worked with victims themselves to get their input). There's stringent background checks for all those who work in children's ministries; and a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to addressing allegations of abuse now--along with full cooperation with local authorities.
                   
                • g8orbill

                  g8orbill OldGator
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                  rev if the article misquotes the Pope my apologies-but you have to admit this has been an ongoing problem in the Roman Catholic Church for eons-they hushed it and just transferred the Priests
                   
                • gingerlover

                  gingerlover Junior Member
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                  Here is just my opinion as someone with a catholic wife and who attends a Catholic Church so my son can go to their school (grew up Baptist before preferring non denomination churches).

                  Catholics are proud Christians that take their values seriously. That being said the pedestal they put the Church itself on (their creed puts it right next to the holy trinity) and their inability to call their leadership out hinders them. The tradition and pageantry of it all clouds their judgement at times and makes them very arrogant in my dealings. Don’t even get me started how the priest talked to us leading up to my sons baptism.

                  At the end of the day I agree with many that asking these people to remain sexless is a recipe for disaster, but the church itself has thought itself above anyone else’s opinion for a long time. No man if the cloth is perfect but you don’t hear many of these stories about stuff with kids coming from preachers that are married. You might get one from time to time that bang a secretary but when found out they are usually rightfully cast out.
                   
                  • g8orbill

                    g8orbill OldGator
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                    I have an acquaintance who is a RC Priest- he was originally an Episcopal Priest and is married- he was allowed to come over to the RC Church even though he is married
                     
                    • gatorev12

                      gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                      Just observing the media being the media, really. I don't see anything objectionable with what the Pope said, whatsoever...yet only people criticizing the Church were interviewed for that article--and not a word of what the Pope actually said was quoted.

                      I understand victims being angry, no matter what the Pope says or what actions the Church takes. I can't say I blame them: they have every right to be pissed.

                      And yes: it was most definitely a problem that went on for too long. But the PA grand jury report mostly deals with abuses from the 60s, 70s, and up until the early 80s. Same time period as happened when these scandals first broke in the early 2000s in Boston, Chicago, and Ireland. Even the most recent stuff (from the scandal in Chile) dates to the 90s.

                      In the early 2000s, the Church took firm steps to correct the problem. No more transferring of accused priests from parish to parish: the Church reports it to local law enforcement and does their own investigation in full cooperation with authorities. All lay persons working in any ministry involving children have to take a special class about Protecting God's Children that lasts 3-6 hours AND be subjected to a background check. Priests have still more focus on it.

                      There's a reason when you read these articles about past abuse that the time period was from pre-2000. Now, if a priest is accused, it's immediately handled. To be clear: I'm not suggesting that takes away from the evil and callous indifference that was shown in decades prior. Only making the point that things did change and the proof is by the fact it isn't happening on such a scale anywhere currently.
                       
                      • gatorplank

                        gatorplank Well-Known Member

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                        I worked in a Catholic school, and I was background checked, and took the Protecting God’s Children course. It was interesting. It featured two unrepentant child molestors (on video) who explained in intricate detail how they would gain the trust of children, condition them to get used to being touched, and then how they would molest them. It was really disgusting, but informative on the typical behavior of child predators.

                        Having said that, yes, we need to consider the source. The media isn’t unbiased in matters of religion.
                         
                        • gatorev12

                          gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                          Thank you for the honest insight and criticism. I would agree many Catholics make the same error in judgment that its leaders did in seeking to protect the institution at all costs.

                          While I routinely (ie: daily) fail at God's teachings; I do my best to hold the Church's leadership to task on this and other issues when I feel they're wrong. Contrary to what most people think, there's a TON of disagreement within the Church itself. You can't mess with the core teachings (the Holy Trinity, Jesus as our Savior, etc); but outside of that, it's pretty much open for debate--and trust me: it is.
                           
                          • gingerlover

                            gingerlover Junior Member
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                            I appreciate your response and I am glad to hear that your church and others you have attended are open to debating issues. Most of my experience goes to our last church before moving. The popes word was the word of god there. There were no debates as the head father was very strict and my wife almost left there for things he said to her about our marriage because I won’t convert. To him the Catholic Church was the fourth part of holiness and everything Catholics proclaimed was right and just, while the rest were essentially godless heathens.
                             
                            • 92gator

                              92gator Well-Known Member

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                              Christ spent 3 years in His ministry before being crucified, then resurrected, then ascending into Heaven.

                              What did He do during those fateful 3 years?

                              He set about establishing a church; His Church. It is what he left us. He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide her and be with her through the end of times; protect her, that the 'gates of hades' would not prevail against her. It's in your Bible too--which you even have, because that same Church that Christ founded, preserved and protected its composite writings throughout history.

                              If the Church which Christ founded falls, it ain't just 'the Catholics' are are screwed.

                              It would mean that Christ is a liar; a false prophet; not whom He claimed He was.

                              Your prayer should therefore be that the Holy Spirit protect His bride, as Christ promised...

                              (...and my prayer is that our 'separated brothers' stop treating the Church that Christ founded, as their mortal enemy).

                              ...as for the child molestation in the Church---it is utterly disgusting; a cancer in the Church, which has only recently been diagnosed, and begun to be treated with the equivalent of chemo (reporting abusers to authorities at first chance, rather than running cover for them...) with in the last few decades.

                              But like cancer in the early stages, it has not 'metastasized'.

                              Despite the public coverage of the matter, the number of priests implicated in the whole mess over the decades is substantially less than 1 percent, and the number of vics can't even be expressed as a percentage (which is not at all to excuse, make light of, or even mitigate the egregiousness of the crimes perpetrated here--simply to keep them in proper numerical perspective).

                              There's still a great deal of cleaning house that must still be done, but the Church herself does not deserve the death sentence (baby/bath water...).
                               
                              • 92gator

                                92gator Well-Known Member

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                                Fwiw, thr Church commissioned an extensive study by third party into possible correlation bt celibscy and pedofilia, which came back as conclusively negative (no correlation).
                                 

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