Small Business Owners HR question

Concrete Helmet

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Anyone out there that owns their own business or has in the past, with payroll employee's or perhaps maybe a legal background like @Alumni Guy or @AlexDaGator perhaps? We have an ongoing issue with 2 employee's in particular and one especially that always seem to come up with an excuse to be off whenever the other employee ask for time off or has it on the schedule.

It really can't be for lack of vacation time as we offer 2-4 weeks paid vacation depending on tenure. Of course the occasional emergency pops up for anyone but this pattern is just too orchestrated to be a coincidence. It has been going on for probably 5-6 years and is clearly noticeble even by other members of the staff.

My question is what is legal for an employer to demand as verification(it always seems to be a death or sickness so we would have to be careful how to approach the situation)....I probably shouldn't mention this but both are women and older so it kind of appears to be a jealousy thing as the 2 of them have gone at each other several times in the past. We have a very easy going and courteous staff including several members of the family and everyone looks out for one another other than these two.

Any suggestions or advice? What is permissible to ask or demand as verification. This has got to end as there may be sweeping changes in the near to itermediate with the business.
 

LaylaGator

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I would consult a labor attorney, because the rules vary depending on the size of your staff, the rules frequently change, and the fees/penalties can be exorbitant compared to the actual damages or withheld wages. It's risky territory with w-2 employees on a smaller scale.
 

Concrete Helmet

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I would consult a labor attorney, because the rules vary depending on the size of your staff, the rules frequently change, and the fees/penalties can be exorbitant compared to the actual damages or withheld wages. It's risky territory with w-2 employees on a smaller scale.
Thanks Layla......at the risk of sounding sexist have you as a women ever noticed that women seem to create issues like this more so than men?
 

Alumni Guy

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Crete, sorry for late reply. Wish I could help, but employment law is pretty specialized. Don’t know enough to help out.

All I know is tread lightly in this area, because your approaching HIPPA and possibly ADA issues.

The coordinated absences definitely seems sketchy though.
 

URGatorBait

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Anyone out there that owns their own business or has in the past, with payroll employee's or perhaps maybe a legal background like @Alumni Guy or @AlexDaGator perhaps? We have an ongoing issue with 2 employee's in particular and one especially that always seem to come up with an excuse to be off whenever the other employee ask for time off or has it on the schedule.

It really can't be for lack of vacation time as we offer 2-4 weeks paid vacation depending on tenure. Of course the occasional emergency pops up for anyone but this pattern is just too orchestrated to be a coincidence. It has been going on for probably 5-6 years and is clearly noticeble even by other members of the staff.

My question is what is legal for an employer to demand as verification(it always seems to be a death or sickness so we would have to be careful how to approach the situation)....I probably shouldn't mention this but both are women and older so it kind of appears to be a jealousy thing as the 2 of them have gone at each other several times in the past. We have a very easy going and courteous staff including several members of the family and everyone looks out for one another other than these two.

Any suggestions or advice? What is permissible to ask or demand as verification. This has got to end as there may be sweeping changes in the near to itermediate with the business.
2 parts of your post make it unclear.

In your first paragraph you sound like you are saying one takes off, then the other finds a way to get off at same time, as if they are vacationing together.

But in your third paragraph you say it almost as if one takes off and the other says, F this bitch, I'm getting off too :lol: like they don't like each other.

Just for clarification which are you thinking or suggesting is the case?

At the end of the day though, Florida is a right to work state, so you can kick to the curb one or both of them, and why doesn't matter, I assume you already know that though :lol:
 

Concrete Helmet

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But in your third paragraph you say it almost as if one takes off and the other says, F this bitch, I'm getting off too :lol: like they don't like each other.
This would be the case.
It's almost like a jealousy thing, plus since they perform the same task/function the one that would be "stuck" there has to pick up a little of the others slack....I know it sounds weird or maybe childish but it is certainly noticeable and leaves us in a bad situation in the case of any emergency should the 3rd person who does the same task/function have to call out. It also keeps us from being able to schedule the volume we need to be producing when were short staffed at that position.

In the case of one of them technology may be making their position almost obsolete due the wishes of our largest client....the other serves other purposes for us such as producing reports, marketing and such. My question is would there be a "reliability clause" or such that may make parting ways legal and justified in the near future?
 

Altitude Gator

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Crete, it really depends on your state. If you are in a right to work state, you can ****can one or both for no reason (and in my state (Colorado), the best advice is to give no reason that can later be questioned.

Also, I would dump them both from my business right now. I am in title and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting good title folks who have been recently laid off, so replacement is not a difficulty. And improvement seems likely.

If you aren't in a right to work state, get specific legal advice from an employment lawyer...it will be worth it when you finally get tired of the nonsense.
 

URGatorBait

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This would be the case.
It's almost like a jealousy thing, plus since they perform the same task/function the one that would be "stuck" there has to pick up a little of the others slack....I know it sounds weird or maybe childish but it is certainly noticeable and leaves us in a bad situation in the case of any emergency should the 3rd person who does the same task/function have to call out. It also keeps us from being able to schedule the volume we need to be producing when were short staffed at that position.

In the case of one of them technology may be making their position almost obsolete due the wishes of our largest client....the other serves other purposes for us such as producing reports, marketing and such. My question is would there be a "reliability clause" or such that may make parting ways legal and justified in the near future?
Is it typically the same person calling out secondary to the other? Or does this exchange flip flop between them?
 

URGatorBait

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Crete, it really depends on your state. If you are in a right to work state, you can ****can one or both for no reason (and in my state (Colorado), the best advice is to give no reason that can later be questioned.

Also, I would dump them both from my business right now. I am in title and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting good title folks who have been recently laid off, so replacement is not a difficulty. And improvement seems likely.

If you aren't in a right to work state, get specific legal advice from an employment lawyer...it will be worth it when you finally get tired of the nonsense.
Florida is a right to work state.
He can kick em to the curb tomorrow and just smile and wave if he wants to
 

Concrete Helmet

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Is it typically the same person calling out secondary to the other? Or does this exchange flip flop between them?
It has flip flopped but over the last 2 years or so one in particular seems to come up with a funeral, family sickness or emergency whenever it gets close to someone else's scheduled time off.....Just so you know it's not a day of callout it just seem to "pop" up a few days before the other is off for more than a few days....I'm starting to wonder if the family has any living members since by my calculations they've all died over the last few years...:lol2:

The other bad thing is we haven't taken vacation in 4 years because the last 2 times we did guess who had an emergency both times??? It's like a total mind f vck game.....and these people have 3-4 weeks paid vacation per year.
 

URGatorBait

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It has flip flopped but over the last 2 years or so one in particular seems to come up with a funeral, family sickness or emergency whenever it gets close to someone else's scheduled time off.....Just so you know it's not a day of callout it just seem to "pop" up a few days before the other is off for more than a few days....I'm starting to wonder if the family has any living members since by my calculations they've all died over the last few years...:lol2:

The other bad thing is we haven't taken vacation in 4 years because the last 2 times we did guess who had an emergency both times??? It's like a total mind f vck game.....and these people have 3-4 weeks paid vacation per year.
I mean, it's certainly possible that these things come up, especially with an older demographic. However, if you are noticing a pattern, then you are noticing a pattern.
I'm assuming this time only falls into the existing paid vacation they have available to them though right? You're not paying them outside of their available vacation allotment I'm assuming.
If it's all within what you are allowing, I see you really only having two options.....put up with it, or since it's a right to work state, move on from the one that is most egregious (and less beneficial to your business) and find a replacement (if even necessary) that might be more reliable.

I would refrain from digging too personally in questioning them....however your business can have guidelines for what would be considered approved bereavement, i.e. close family members (or in house family) as apposed to other relatives and friends, etc.
 

Alumni Guy

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Florida is a right to work state.
He can kick em to the curb tomorrow and just smile and wave if he wants to
Yup, the less you say the better when axing someone.

My limited knowledge of employment law in Florida is that you can fire anyone for any reason as long as 1) they don’t have a contract guaranteeing the employment; 2) the firing is not strictly prohibited by law (discrimination. Whistleblower, etc)

So, less is better because you don’t want to bumble your way into #2.
 

Concrete Helmet

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All good info guys. We are a small pretty much family business so this isn't something we would have a lot of experience dealing with nor do we want to deal with. That in itself is probably part of the problem as my better half is pretty nonconfrontational and just works that much harder to keep up. Me on the other hand has to bite my lip and work in a space by myself so that I don't "upset" others....
 

MJMGator

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Just tell her that her attendance is unacceptable and you’re letting her go. Nothing else need be said.
 

wrpgator

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We hired a bookkeeper several years ago. Her interview went well according to my better half who is our company controller / V.P. (but she gives everyone the benefit of the doubt always) and she had the construction bookkeeping experience we were looking for. Soon after hiring her she developed a pattern of having some "family emergency" occurring on Friday or Monday or both. Details were always vague. Her work started off 'okay', but became sloppy. Being an 'employee at will', we let her go after a few months. A few weeks before we terminated her she mentioned she thought the front door to the office closed too fast. Door closers sometimes lose tension, so I had one of our carpenters replace it. A few weeks after we fired this woman, we got a letter from a personal injury atty demanding this that & the other for injuries to his client due to faulty door slamming her and injuring her back. She never reported an injury and we said "No" to this. They filed a work comp claim and the insurance company paid (in spite of our objections) her $70k. We found out later she had pulled this scam with an employer in S.C. over a rug tripping incident & received $60K. She was setting us up and wanted to get fired.
This is my 41st year in business and I'm about over it...

Edit: For the trouble, and having the insurance company capitulate like that, I just wish I'd told her "Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out"
 
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