Super Bowl Thread

[KCgator]

Has Carroll been fired yet? Unbelievable

This.

 

[I Have No Friends :(]

Montana had the better cast but I would still consider him to be better than Brady.

I have Brady slightly over Montana, but honestly it's like rating them 1a and 1b. I think a legitimate case for either could be argued until the end of time.

 

[FireFoley]

When you have less than a minute to go in the game with one timeout and need a touchdown to win, you don't waste a play by spiking the ball. If they spiked the ball, then they only have 2 plays to try to score instead of 3, and they had enough time for 3 plays. Also, if Seattle scores on the play or if it is an incompletion, no one thinks it's a bad play call. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Everyone thinks this was a terrible call because they assume Lynch would have run it in for the score on that 2nd down, but in reality no one knows that for sure. The more I think about it the more I understand the call, even though I personally would have given it to Lynch in that situation. If they run the ball and don't get it, then they are forced to use their last timeout. Then on 3rd down, if they run it and don't get it they don't have enough time to run a play on 4th, so 3rd down is a must pass situation. The way that they were lined up on 2nd down, they still had a run or pass threat which makes the playcall less predictable. I personally thought they were going to run the read option on 2nd down and the pass caught me off gaurd, but obviously not the Pats' D. Anyways, if that ball was an incompletion instead of a INT, then the clock stops, they still have a run or pass threat on 3rd down, and with a timeout they have enough time to run another play on 4th.

Also, give credit to Bilichik for not calling a time out at the 0:54 mark. I thought he would have called a timeout there to give Brady time to score if Seattle scored, but he showed complete confidence in his defense to stop them. If Belichik calls that timeout, then Seattle probably runs the ball on second down and maybe every down until they pound it in. I suspect Seattle expected New England to call the timeout, and when they didn't then Seattle thought they needed to pass to conserve time. That's why they took up so much time between first and second down imo.

I was not saying they should have spiked the ball, I was commenting on what Bevell said that the play was meant to kill the clock. I understand your thinking, but you are considering the results of the play. The game management aspect has nothing to do with results. If that pass had been completed for a TD, it still would have been the worst call in the history of the super bowl. I am making no assumptions of Lynch scoring or not scoring, but had they fed him the ball on 3 more plays in a row, I could live with that. But with a TO to play with and plenty of time, you don;t throw into traffic on SECOND DOWN. Throw into traffic on 4th down, but not 2nd down. The point everyone is making is that it was a terrible call from a MANAGEMENT angle, it has nothing to do with the result. When managing a game, you gather all the info in front of you, assess your strengths/weaknesses etc,, the situation, and based on all those factors an a lot more, the play they ran was still the WORST play call in the history of the super bowl.

 

[T REX]

I have Brady slightly over Montana, but honestly it's like rating them 1a and 1b. I think a legitimate case for either could be argued until the end of time.

Agreed...but how many HOF'ers did each play with? Six Super Bowls? Crazy.

BTW, I'm a huge Montana fan. Just thought it was an interesting discussion.

 

[I Have No Friends :(]

Agreed...but how many HOF'ers did each play with? Six Super Bowls? Crazy.

BTW, I'm a huge Montana fan. Just thought it was an interesting discussion.

For sure it's an interesting discussion, but look at those Giants defenses that Montana had to beat in order to get to his Super Bowls. In fact most of the years the 49ers got to the Super Bowl the real Super Bowl was played in the NFC Championship Game. Epic battles.

 

[CapitalGator02]

Hahahahahaha **** Lynch, **** Sherman, and **** the ****ing Seahawks! Thank you Patriots

So, which team were you pulling for?

 

[GatorJB]

The game management aspect has nothing to do with results. If that pass had been completed for a TD, it still would have been the worst call in the history of the super bowl.

Like I said earlier, I would have run the ball if I was Carroll, but proper game management absolutley must consider potential results of plays. Also, nobody would be saying it was a bad play or "worst play in the history of the superbowl" if it were a TD or even an incompletion for that matter.

 

[FireFoley]

Risk vs. Reward is how I look at game management in any situation. Not an apples vs apples comparison but here is an example. Basketball game. You lead by 1 point and are at the free throw line for one more free throw. 1 second on the clock and neither team has any timeouts. Do you instruct your player to miss the free throw on purpose and correctly of course as it must touch the rim, and force the other team to heave it 90+ feet to win, or do you hope it is made to go up 2, allow the other team to toss the ball down the court and perhaps get a closer look for a two to tie or a 3 to win? In my opinion the correct game management is to correctly miss the free throw and let them heave it 90+ feet, as opposed to giving them a few seconds to execute a pass to get them within half that distance. We can agree to disagree when it comes to game management.

 

[GatorJB]

Risk vs. Reward is how I look at game management in any situation. Not an apples vs apples comparison but here is an example. Basketball game. You lead by 1 point and are at the free throw line for one more free throw. 1 second on the clock and neither team has any timeouts. Do you instruct your player to miss the free throw on purpose and correctly of course as it must touch the rim, and force the other team to heave it 90+ feet to win, or do you hope it is made to go up 2, allow the other team to toss the ball down the court and perhaps get a closer look for a two to tie or a 3 to win? In my opinion the correct game management is to correctly miss the free throw and let them heave it 90+ feet, as opposed to giving them a few seconds to execute a pass to get them within half that distance. We can agree to disagree when it comes to game management.

I think we will agree to disagree when it comes to game management.

 

[BostonGator84]

Thinking out loud here...

So with 20 seconds and one timeout left, you want to maximize your chances of getting in the end zone. It's 2nd and goal from the 1.

Option A: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Run Lynch again. Doubtful there would be time for a 3rd attempt.
Option B: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option C: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option D: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Pass into the end zone with game on the line.

There are other options, but I don't want to confuse myself at 12:30 in the morning (we got another 16 inches of snow today after 33 inches last week...spent the past two hours shoveling. I miss Florida.)

Now, given Lynch's reputation as Beast Mode, the Seahawks are getting hammered for not going to him directly. But, to be fair, they had options. Option A seems to be what everyone thought they should do - but it would have given them only 2 shots at the end zone when all other options allowed for three attempts. If you look at Option A or Option C, the only difference is that with Option C you get one extra pass play, so an extra attempt to get in the end zone. What's wrong with that? Nothing...except if you get picked off. Which they did.

I probably would have gone with option B. You get two runs and a pass in both instances, but you put the game first in the hands of your star. But the decision to go with C instead of B isn't as shaky as everyone is saying. Especially since New England trotted their goal line defense out there. Percentages would say if they are in a goal line defense and you don't have a power set, pass the ball and live to see another down.

Interesting stat, I read that Lynch throughout the season had 5 rush attempts from the 1, but only one of the five went for a touchdown. Maybe that went into their reasoning too.

Anyway, great game, great comeback by the best in the business, and the game won by a rookie out of West Alabama. Who would have thought.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

Thinking out loud here...

So with 20 seconds and one timeout left, you want to maximize your chances of getting in the end zone. It's 2nd and goal from the 1.

Option A: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Run Lynch again. Doubtful there would be time for a 3rd attempt.
Option B: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option C: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option D: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Pass into the end zone with game on the line.

In my mind, this was easily the wisest course of action. But you wouldn't necessarily have to run Lynch on 4th down, you could more or less run whatever play you felt like running at that point.

 

[PastyStoole]

Not to get off topic but what did you guys think of the commercials? I liked the Pizza Hut commercial where the lady tries to call 911 to order a pizza, half pepperoni, half mushroom. The guy keeps trying to tell her that's she's called 911, not Pizza Hut, but no, she's determined. She wants her Pizza! Hilarious. Not sure why I was the only one laughing at the Super Bowl party, though.

 

[PatDooleySucks]

Like I said earlier, I would have run the ball if I was Carroll, but proper game management absolutley must consider potential results of plays. Also, nobody would be saying it was a bad play or "worst play in the history of the superbowl" if it were a TD or even an incompletion for that matter.

Right. Case in point. Nobody is saying Belichick's refusal to call a time out on the play in question was an awful call, because the results worked. Had the pass fallen incomplete, and the Seahawks ran the ball in on one of the next two plays then the Patriots would have been left with zero time on the clock to drive for a field goal. Belichick would have been eviscerated in the media for not allowing Brady time to get a field goal. In fact, you wouldn't get articles like this:

The call was a fine call. The Seahawks went with a slant pass because they had a). time constraints and b). everybody in the world was expecting run, run, run. Nine out of ten times that is a TD or an incomplete pass. The national media and the fans that are spoon fed whatever position the national media takes are just second guessing the call, because it didn't work. If the pass is a completed TD or an incomplete pass than the narrative becomes Belichick made the worst decision in SB history to not call a timeout when he had TWO left! It was gamesmanship at its best and a great SB.

 

[PatDooleySucks]

In my mind, this was easily the wisest course of action. But you wouldn't necessarily have to run Lynch on 4th down, you could more or less run whatever play you felt like running at that point.

I think saying this is the "wisest" course of action totally discounts the fact that was pointed out prior. New England was in a goal line defense. If you were going to pass, that was the play to pass it on. Regardless I think BostonGator has laid out what is basically irrefutable. The course of action the Seahawks took based on their options at the time is not some flabbergasting/inane/"worst call." The differences between the options aren't this chasm of incompetence that the knee jerk reactors want to claim.

 

[oxrageous]

Not to get off topic but what did you guys think of the commercials? I liked the Pizza Hut commercial where the lady tries to call 911 to order a pizza, half pepperoni, half mushroom. The guy keeps trying to tell her that's she's called 911, not Pizza Hut, but no, she's determined. She wants her Pizza! Hilarious. Not sure why I was the only one laughing at the Super Bowl party, though.

A lot of people are going to take you seriously.

 

[TheDouglas78]

Thinking out loud here...

Option A: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Run Lynch again. Doubtful there would be time for a 3rd attempt.
Option B: Run Lynch, if it doesn't work, call timeout. Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option C: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Run Lynch on 4th down with the game on the line.
Option D: Pass into the end zone. Run Lynch, call time out. Pass into the end zone with game on the line.

B. I would run Lynch first, then maybe a Play Action Pass to get Wilson out of the pocket on third down give him the run/pass option. Then you can decide at that point what to do on 4th down. With 26 seconds and timeout in your pocket, you have about 3 plays if you manage the clock right.