The Best Handgun Caliber - A Real World Study

AugustaGator

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20 gauge semi auto (which is what he was talking about)... but yes, among others, I do have a short barreled over under in 12ga which makes a great back pack scabbard gun
It’s my favorite. Sxs are nice too.

It’s what I use when shooting birds.
 

Concrete Helmet

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Birshot is dumb. Unless it is very big, #2 BB T something like that. The other stuff just doesn't penetrate enough to ensure incapacitation. It produces horrible looking quite shallow wounds. If God forbid, you had to use it to defend yourself, you want to stop the threat.
I'm also not sure I would want to be running light loads followed by heavy ones of the other way around as a SG especially a semi auto would have a higher percentage of malfunction....
He must have meant buck then slug. I've heard a quite a few in LE do one or 2 rounds of buck then the rest slug or bucknball because if the fight goes more than a few shots(rarely) the distance spreads out and the slugs are more accurate beyond say 15-20 yards or more. Probably not applicable in home defense situations though...K.I.S.S I'm running 00 from start to finish.
 
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Swamp Donkey

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Probably not applicable in home defense situations though...K.I.S.S I'm running 00 from start to finish.
I like #4 buck in the house, it just lowers chance of over penetration, but OO is fine. I wouldnt feel concerned about BB, T or maybe #2 bird.

I know people (cops) who run a few buckshot followed by a pair of slugs, thinking that if you are that far down the tube you probably need more accuracy or penetration. That's not really an issue with a home defense gun.

Most cops don't get anything beyond very basic shotgun training but there are things like select slug drills that allow you to fairly quickly change your mind on what you have in the tube or chamber.

If you go through history however, you'll have a rough time finding anyone who needed to reload a shotgun even in law enforcement annals. Very few ever reload.
 
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ThreatMatrix

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Yeah I specifically asked if he meant bird or buck and he said bird.
Knowing the guy it might be because there is less lethality with bird shot maybe figuring the first shot at least gives the intruder a chance to reconsider. But who knows.
 

Concrete Helmet

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If you go through history however, you'll have a rough time finding anyone who needed to reload a shotgun even in law enforcement annals.
If I'm scared for my life and filled over the top with adrenaline the last thing I'm thinking about is wondering what kind of round is going into the chamber....I'm starting with what I'm finishing with. I only keep 00 at the ready and in fact since I mostly shoot target on private property 90% of all rounds run through this gun have been the same.
I agree on reloading but it is fun to add some stress to target practice when adding shells either over the top or under while not taking your eyes off the target.
 

AugustaGator

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I like #4 buck in the house, it just lowers chance of over penetration, but OO is fine.

I know people (cops) who run a few buckshot followed by a pair of slugs, thinking that if you are that far down the tube you probably need more accuracy or penetration. That's not really an issue with a home defense gun.

Most cops don't get anything beyond very basic shotgun training but there are things like select slug drills that allow you to fairly quickly change your mind on what you have in the tube or chamber.

If you go through history however, you'll have a rough time finding anyone who needed to reload a shotgun even in law enforcement annals. Very few ever reload.
And why is that?
 

Phineus Maximus

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After watching the video, you then have to take into account multiple assailants and the fact that you can't carry rifles and shotguns out in public. Because of this, I agree with what Steve Reichert has to say:

SR’s Handgun Caliber Choice

If you read through it, he puts to rest the myth of "stopping (knockdown) power" and comes to a logical conclusion of the most effective caliber.

I, personally, carry a Glock 22 (.40) which holds 15 + 1. I probably would have purchased a Glock 17 (9 mm), which holds two additional rounds, if I had read this article years ago before I had made my initial purchase of my .40.
 

Bushmaster

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Top to bottom, best all around is the .357 6 shot revolver with a 3 inch barrel.

It is literally point and pull. No loading issues, no jamming, more than enough knock down power, etc. If you need more than 6 shots to get out of a jam, you are going to die anyway.

The more experienced you are, I would go with the .40 mentioned above. My standard issue is the Beretta 92F. I have the civilian one as a standard carry. I CC a 380 auto because its small. That one is for getting someone's attention until I can plub them in the forehead. I keep a 357 S&W 1" in my desk drawer at work. I have shot every firearm in the Army arsenal including some of the old WW2 Tommy guns.

While I like the shotgun with #6 Pheasant or #8 bird shot for home defense, against an experienced martial artist in CQB, it can be neutralized fairly easily. I don't like 00 buck for home defense because of the likelyhood the shot goes thru a wall and hits one of my kids. #8 to the face is just as effective. #6 is likely killing them without the splash shot going thru the walls. As far as knockdown power of 00 buck, my friend was killed when we were in 8th grade by a 12 gauge shotgun. Dumbass, who was an adult, didn't think his gun was loaded and was playing around, pointed it straight at my friend, and pulled the trigger from 8-10 feet away. He was dead before he hit the ground. We buried him the day after Christmas in 1982. People always tell you to never point a gun at something you don't intend to kill. I tell my kids don't let anyone point a gun at you even if you and they think its unloaded.

While I think the .357 is the best overall, it may not be best for YOU.
 

Phineus Maximus

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Top to bottom, best all around is the .357 6 shot revolver with a 3 inch barrel.

Definitely not my choice should there be multiple assailants.

For the house, I have a Mossberg 500 with 00 buck as a first choice of many. AAMOF, I have a Bushmaster XM15-E2S right next to my shotgun. ;)
 

AugustaGator

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Top to bottom, best all around is the .357 6 shot revolver with a 3 inch barrel.

It is literally point and pull. No loading issues, no jamming, more than enough knock down power, etc. If you need more than 6 shots to get out of a jam, you are going to die anyway.

The more experienced you are, I would go with the .40 mentioned above. My standard issue is the Beretta 92F. I have the civilian one as a standard carry. I CC a 380 auto because its small. That one is for getting someone's attention until I can plub them in the forehead. I keep a 357 S&W 1" in my desk drawer at work. I have shot every firearm in the Army arsenal including some of the old WW2 Tommy guns.

While I like the shotgun with #6 Pheasant or #8 bird shot for home defense, against an experienced martial artist in CQB, it can be neutralized fairly easily. I don't like 00 buck for home defense because of the likelyhood the shot goes thru a wall and hits one of my kids. #8 to the face is just as effective. #6 is likely killing them without the splash shot going thru the walls. As far as knockdown power of 00 buck, my friend was killed when we were in 8th grade by a 12 gauge shotgun. Dumbass, who was an adult, didn't think his gun was loaded and was playing around, pointed it straight at my friend, and pulled the trigger from 8-10 feet away. He was dead before he hit the ground. We buried him the day after Christmas in 1982. People always tell you to never point a gun at something you don't intend to kill. I tell my kids don't let anyone point a gun at you even if you and they think its unloaded.

While I think the .357 is the best overall, it may not be best for YOU.
It’s what I have along with 12g auto.
 

Swamp Donkey

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While I like the shotgun with #6 Pheasant or #8 bird shot for home defense... I don't like 00 buck for home defense because of the likelyhood the shot goes thru a wall and hits one of my kids..
No offense, but no trained firearms or tactical instructor agree with you. Birdshot is for birds.

There is no such thing as a useful defense round that wont penetrate a sheet of drywall or paneling.

Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds - The Truth About Guns

No one recommends a PISTOL round that penetrates a fraction of what a .25 acp or 22 short does, and that is exactly what #8 or #6 birdshot does and ypu arent the only one who spouts that recommendation.

It only penetrates a few inches in bare gellatin (no skin or bones) and would be almost spent after penetrating a thick leather jacket or vest.

I just about guarantee I could take you to the range with a moving target and youd have almost no chance at short range (across the room) of hitting steel the size of a face.

Small birdshot is essentially a warning shot. You need at least #2 or BB to get into the same penetration range as say .32 or .380 hollow point.

I would never recommend someone a home defense tool that would only be useful for head shots.
 
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Concrete Helmet

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No offense, but no trained firearms or tactical instructor agree with you. Birdshot is for birds.

There is no such thing as a useful defense round that wont penetrate a sheet of drywall or paneling.

Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds - The Truth About Guns

No one recommends a round that penetrates a fraction of what a .25 acp or 22 short does, and that is exactly what #8 or #6 birdshot does. It only penetrates a few inches in bare gellatin (no skin or bones) and would be almost spent after penetrating a thick leather jacket or vest.

I just about guarantee I could take you to the range with a moving target and youd have almost no chance at short range (across the room) of hitting steel the size of a face.

Small birdshot is essentially a warning shot. You need at least #2 or BB to get into the same penetration range as say .32 or .380 hollow point.

I would never recommend someone a home defense tool that would only be useful for head shots.
Some people have the wrong impression that birdshot spreads out faster than buck increasing their chances of hitting something. The truth is at HD ranges of even 10 to 12 yards neither spreads out more than about 2 to 3 inches in diameter or less. Some people also mistakenly believe you can't miss with a shotgun at close range.....wrong. We made and use 3 targets to resemble critical mass, about 20" wide and 32" tall and spread them out about 6 to 8 feet apart and stand about 20-25 feet away to simulate multiple attackers and a possible rush scenario. It's a 3 shot rapid fire drill with an ex Marine screaming in my ear and I still miss at least one of the targets occasionally and almost always hit off center on the 2nd and third. My Marine buddy is almost always near center while using an AR or his 45....

Shotguns in most peoples hands are not really more accurate in stressful close quarter situations. What they are is more often that not more powerful if loaded with the right round. Birdshot is taking that away from the weapon so one might be better off with a large caliber pistol.....Also as someone defending their home you need to assume the intruder is NOT in the right state of mind....Drugs or withdrawal from them can provide additional adrenaline. An Orange County Deputy friend of mine told me a story several years back about a shooting incident locally where a meth head ate 5 rounds from a 9mm and still kept coming before taking a few including a headshot from a 40cal before dropping....stopping is what's needed most so use what would work best.IMO.
 
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Bushmaster

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No offense, but no trained firearms or tactical instructor agree with you. Birdshot is for birds.

There is no such thing as a useful defense round that wont penetrate a sheet of drywall or paneling.

Shotgun Penetration With Various Rounds - The Truth About Guns

No one recommends a round that penetrates a fraction of what a .25 acp or 22 short does, and that is exactly what #8 or #6 birdshot does. It only penetrates a few inches in bare gellatin (no skin or bones) and would be almost spent after penetrating a thick leather jacket or vest.

I just about guarantee I could take you to the range with a moving target and youd have almost no chance at short range (across the room) of hitting steel the size of a face.

Small birdshot is essentially a warning shot. You need at least #2 or BB to get into the same penetration range as say .32 or .380 hollow point.

I would never recommend someone a home defense tool that would only be useful for head shots.


Well, it wouldn't be the first time you would be wrong. I didn't recommend the shotgun did I?

Tell you what. Come down my hallway at work (its wider than a standard house hallway so you would have a fighting chance) and let me shoot at you with #8 birdshot (or is it 00 buck, you don't really know do you?) and lets see if it stops you. Deal?

I am not worried about #8 or #6 going thru TWO sides of 1/2 inch sheetrock and insulation. I am quite sure it will, but it will lost most of its stopping power after going throw the insulation and 1 inch of sheetrock, so I am not worried as much about my kid getting hit on the other side. Doesn't make any sense to me to kill an intruder and one of my kids at the same time. YMMV.

Having worn the boots of an Infantry Officer in the United States Army for 28 years, trained literally THOUSANDS for combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, I am more than comfortable discussing the various techniques to defend myself and my family against an armed intruder with anyone and more than comfortable in actually doing it.
 

Swamp Donkey

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Some people have the wrong impression that birdshot spreads out faster than buck increasing their chances of hitting something. The truth is at HD ranges of even 10 to 12 yards neither spreads out more than about 2 to 3 inches in diameter or less. Some people also mistakenly believe you can't miss with a shotgun at close range.....wrong. We made and use 3 targets to resemble critical mass, about 20" wide and 32" tall and spread them out about 6 to 8 feet apart and stand about 20-25 feet away to simulate multiple attackers and a possible rush scenario. It's a 3 shot rapid fire drill with an ex Marine screaming in my ear and I still miss at least one of the targets occasionally and almost always hit off center on the 2nd and third. My Marine buddy is almost always near center while using an AR or his 45....

Shotguns in most peoples hands are not really more accurate in stressful close quarter situations. What they are is more often that not more powerful if loaded with the right round. Birdshot is taking that away from the weapon so one might be better off with a large caliber pistol.....Also as someone defending their home you need to assume the intruder is NOT in the right state of mind....Drugs or withdrawal from them can provide additional adrenaline. An Orange County Deputy friend of mine told me a story several years back about a shooting incident locally where a meth head ate 5 rounds from a 9mm and still kept coming before taking a few including a headshot from a 40cal before dropping....stopping is what's needed most so use what would work best.IMO.
Good stuff. I agree w every point.

Here's a story about determined fight to tue death scumbag who took FOURTEEN .45 rounds from a swat officer. The unfortunate truth is there are very few places on the human body that a handgun bullet will incapacitate a determined criminal.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
 
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Swamp Donkey

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Tell you what. Come down my hallway at work (its wider than a standard house hallway so you would have a fighting chance) and let me shoot at you with #8 birdshot (or is it 00 buck, you don't really know do you?) and lets see if it stops you. Deal?
Such a silly comment. Would I let you shoot me with birdshot? No. I also.wouldnt let you try to shoot me with a Gamo or other pellet gun, or a sling shot, or a junior bow w field points, or a pnematic stapled, or stab me in the eye w a fiberglass knife, "tactical pen" or a butter knife. Any one of those gets probably a six round stitching.

It doesnt mean that any of those are good choices for self defense.

Having worn the boots of an Infantry Officer in the United States Army for 28 years.
I wore jumpboots myself also. We always hated the days we had to qual the officers. There is a reason we made you carry your 1911s empty chambered. :)

I was just at Benning recently. We were discussing major upgrades to Army infantry training. I wonder if the Big Army would ever adopt it. Seems unlikely. Hell it is hard to get a few extra magazines worth of ammo for most Army units. It would be nice to train the line troops a little more than putting a hole in a silhouette during slow fire. (Yes the turning targets are still slow fire).

Essentially we were discussing a shortened Bill Rogers- type school. Ever go to one of those?
 

Bushmaster

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Such a silly comment. Would I let you shoot me with birdshot? No. I also.wouldnt let you try to shoot me with a Gamo or other pellet gun, or a sling shot, or a junior bow w field points, or a pnematic stapled, or stab me in the eye w a fiberglass knife, "tactical pen" or a butter knife. Any one of those gets probably a six round stitching.

It doesnt mean that any of those are good choices for self defense.


I wore jumpboots myself also. We always hated the days we had to qual the officers. There is a reason we made you carry your 1911s empty chambered. :)

I was just at Benning recently. We were discussing major upgrades to Army infantry training. I wonder if the Big Army would ever adopt it. Seems unlikely. Hell it is hard to get a few extra magazines worth of ammo for most Army units. It would be nice to train the line troops a little more than putting a hole in a silhouette during slow fire. (Yes the turning targets are still slow fire).

Essentially we were discussing a shortened Bill Rogers- type school. Ever go to one of those?


IOBC back in my time was 16 weeks of prep for Ranger School. My Tac NCO was a SSG on his way to DS School fresh from 3/75 at Benning. While most get the 60 day version, we got the 120 day version with more sleep and more chow. But no, never got the opportunity. I enlisted first and went the O route later on.

I used to shoot quite a bit at Jim's Pawn Shop on Yadkin. Ever been?
 

Swamp Donkey

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But no, never got the opportunity. I enlisted first and went the O route later on.
What year? Church or Sand Hill?

Bushmaster as in AZ Guard? Or you like Bushmaster rifles.

What units?


I used to shoot quite a bit at Jim's Pawn Shop on Yadkin. Ever been?
Sounds familiar. But I didnt shoot there. I was shopping for something.

Edit: wrong, it was Shooters I went to.

My last trip there we were shooting from dusk to dawn, hands bleeding type stuff. Fun but exhausting. Im getting a little elderly for this.
 
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Detroitgator

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Good stuff. I agree w every point.

Here's a story about determined fight to tue death scumbag who took 14 .45 rounds from a swat officer. The unfortunate truth is there are very few places on the human body that a handgun bullet will incapacitate a determined criminal.

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
I know I’m atypical, and I’ve said this before, and given I don’t recommend this unless one runs drill as often as I do, but your article illustrates again why there are only two places I aim for: band of life, and pelvis.
 

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