The Civil War Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gatoravatara, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. AugustaGator

    AugustaGator Junior Member
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    I don’t know sessions but I have known some twat da’s and this is true. Selective enforcement pisses me off. Bowing up chests and boasting does as well.
     
    • Spurdog98

      Spurdog98 Well-Known Member

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      Shelby Foote who loved Lee theorized that Jackson wouldn't have allowed Lee to march Pickett out in the open and in fact, Lee would have gone to Jackson for his advice and would have been counseled to the contrary. I know this isn't a thread about the civil war but I do love discussing it.
       
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      • Gator By Marriage

        Gator By Marriage A convert to Gatorism
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        Hard to say. Longstreet was opposed to the attack and told Lee on no uncertain terms he believed it would fail. Perhaps Longstreet and Jackson saying it would have made a difference. I have always wondered how Lee could have thought it would work when he had personally seen what happened in a similar situation at Fredericksburg only six months earlier.

        In his memoirs,Longstreet claimed his misgivings were so strong he couldn’t even verbalize the order to advance. Rather when asked by Pickett, Longstreet merely nodded.
         
      • Spurdog98

        Spurdog98 Well-Known Member

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        Foote called it one of the biggest blunders in military history. Hard to know what he was thinking. He may have overestimated the effectiveness of the cannon fire on the positions. My brother has been to G-burg and said it's hard to imagine how anyone thought marching men out in the open through that field was a good idea, much less have any chance for success.
         
      • Gator By Marriage

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        Yes. If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend visiting Gettysburg - If you do a deep dive you can spend 2-3 days there. I have walked Pickett’s charge several times; if you don’t think it was a colossal blunder before you walk it, you’ll figure it out then.
         
        • Loogis

          Loogis Junior Member
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          But to call Lee overrated I’m not so sure. The 7 Days Battle and the subsequent campaign shows his military genius.

          Yeah, he messed up at Gettysburg though.
           
          • AlexDaGator

            AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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            I’m not defending Sessions. I’m questioning why Coach thinks Av is being civil.

            Alex.
             
            • AlexDaGator

              AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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              It was a tactical blunder. It happens, even to great generals. Patton and MacArthur had their share.

              His greater shortcoming was strategic. That’s where he was outclassed.

              You must also temper his tactical successes by the poor quality opposition he faced. Once the North got quality leadership, the results changed.

              I’m not saying Lee sucked. He didn’t. I’m saying he’s overrated. People list him with Alexander and Ghengis Khan.

              Alex.
               
              #28 AlexDaGator, Nov 9, 2019
              Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
            • Frozen Gator

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              I know
               
            • Loogis

              Loogis Junior Member
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              I’m going to have to disagree with you on that. He had the right strategy to win, by taking it to the North and win a decisive victory. The lost special orders 191 at Sharpsburg and the already mentioned Gettysburg debacle killed him tactically. Davis dictated the southern strategy of a defensive war and to sue for peace. That wasn’t on Lee.
               
              • Minister of Information

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                http://www.gdg.org/Research/People/Trimble/shtrimbl.html

                I think Lee’s strategy was just fine. He was failed by Stuart above all others.
                 
                • AlexDaGator

                  AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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                  He was failed by Stuart.

                  His plan as set forth in your quote is not what I’m talking about when I say his failings were on the strategic level. His plan to invade the North wasn’t bad. It’s surprising that it didn’t work out the way he expected.

                  Lee was a traditional military thinker. He was a West Point man who fought the way he was trained to fight. He wasn’t revolutionary—he used the established tactics of his era. He was smart, decisive, bold, a master of those tactics, but not an innovator.

                  A man like Forrest wasn’t constrained in that way. I hate the term, but Forrest was an “outside the box” thinker in part because he didn’t have the “box” ingrained in him.

                  Lee fought a traditional-style war. To secure its independence, the CSA needed to fight an unconventional war. This is the strategic level I’m talking about. You can blame Jefferson Davis too (another conventional thinker) but Lee must ultimately share the blame.


                  Alex.
                   
                  • Gator By Marriage

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                    I agree on Stuart. Ol Jeb had gotten his pride hurt by negative press after the battle of Brandy Station a few weeks earlier and was bound and determined to do something flashy; instead he was foolish and forgot what his job was.
                     
                    • Theologator

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                      Way to perpetuate a completely false narrative in your thread title. Whatever your thoughts on Sessions, he prosecuted the Klan. That is well-documented.There is not a shred of credible evidence to support this damnable allegation. It’s this kind of garbage that actually rallies support for Trump.
                       
                      • Detroitgator

                        Detroitgator General Factotum
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                        Stuart was overrated and should have been relieved if not court martialed, but I get it.

                        Lee was overrated.

                        Macarthur is more overrated than both of them combined, but he did handle post-war Japan almost perfectly. No “Marshall Plan” necessary.

                        I’m a huge Jackson fan, but I think only thing he likely could’ve done was “quick march” his guys pre-battle to seize the high ground first. But he was dead, Buford got and held the high ground long enough for Reynolds to arrive, battle over.
                         
                        • Minister of Information

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                          Robert E. Lee was a military genius with a gift for terrain and somewhat less command of logistics. Thomas J. “Stonewall” Jackson was an extremely able and aggressive corps commander with an intuitive connection to Lee making him, in the overall scheme of things, very difficult to replace in terms of maintaining Lee’s preference for an elevated operational tempo and highly aggressive tactics. Indeed it is difficult to imagine the long term survival much less success of Lee’s command without these technical advantages being fully realized. Today we would call that the OODA loop.

                          Suppose Stewart still AWOL and Lee’s campaign plan to that extent still thwarted, would Jackson have made a decisive difference standing in Ewell’s shoes? His men the “foot cavalry” of II Corps, in their widely observed eagerness to be thrown headlong into the heights against Buford, after thirty miles of forced marches, can be seen as the Shade of Jackson haunting the battlefield with the memory of what once was and might still have been.

                          Judging by past battles such as Chancellorsville and the Seven Days, it could be that Jackson’s sure command of his corps and understanding of his commander would have inspired bold strokes on July 1 that could have changed the entire complexion of the subsequent battle, and developed it significantly in Lee’s favor. The river of union reinforcements marching north on July 2 could have easily been defeated piecemeal in a series of pincer movements led south by Jackson and Longstreet. Mosby and other corps level cavalry detachments were on hand in sufficient strength to transform a semi-meeting engagement and its uncertainties into this envisioned defeat in detail.

                          We should not mark lightly either the strategic material deficits motivating Lee’s campaign. So consider then the impact of Stuart’s later abandoned train of booty upon the subsequent confederate war effort, including the cannon and other material sure to have been seized during the victory. At a minimum, the confederate war effort in Virginia would have been significantly revitalized including the potential for a sustained offensive against large Union cities. The military fallout for the union, while catastrophic, would have been eclipsed by the political, and the political by the diplomatic. Great Britain and others would certainly have recognized and perhaps even supported the confederacy. Lincoln and the republicans would have been finished. Who knows what sort of nation we might be calling home today.

                          But those bold strokes were not made.

                          Was Lee a “great captain”? I don’t know, but he is at least comparable to Hannibal, and I would take him over MacArthur given the opportunity. With material advantages I think he would have (and did) trounced anyone the union could throw at him save perhaps Sherman. But the only great captain of the civil war about which there can be no controversy was Sherman.
                           
                          #36 Minister of Information, Nov 10, 2019
                          Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
                        • Detroitgator

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                          You’re minimizing Jackson’s strategic mind (and how the war should be fought), which the “genius” Lee and Longstreet collectively rejected long before Gettysburg thus reducing Jackson’s role to the tactical.

                          If Lee was a genius, and given the actual events, he should’ve withdrawn after the first day. He didn’t. He was old and tired, rolled the dice, attacked head on, and came up snake eyes.

                          Oh, and Meade at Gettysburg? HIGHLY underrated.

                          Everything Lee learned as a Captain in Mexico and from battles subsequent to Gettysburg was forgotten on those three days, especially Day One. He was merely pedestrian and borderline incompetent at Gettysburg.

                          As for OODA loops, Jackson is what kept Lee inside of the Unions OODA loop... without him, and with Stuart fukkin around instead of doing his fukkin job (more poor leadership from the genius Lee), Lee was average at Gettysburg... average without the high ground.
                           
                          #37 Detroitgator, Nov 10, 2019
                          Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
                        • Minister of Information

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                          Did Hannibal have a bad day at Zama?
                           
                        • Detroitgator

                          Detroitgator General Factotum
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                          You’re making my point, not weakening it.

                          Listen, I learned a lot from Lee and do think he was a great leader, but he didn’t understand how to win the WAR (and Jackson did, but was rejected by Lee/Longstreet), and he fukked up royally, in every major way (and Meade didn’t) at Gettysburg.

                          Hannibal got “out Hannibal’d” at Zama, just like Lee got “out Lee’d” at Gettysburg.

                          EDIT: I was thinking about this more while I was shooting... it's interesting that you chose Hannibal, because in the broad sense, he's a great comparison to Lee:
                          • Both were fighting a much larger, more powerful, nation/empire. Not just army, but opponent in its entirety.
                          • Both were fighting armies led largely by incompetent, politically appointed, non-professional leaders.
                          • Both enjoyed big, early successes by not engaging their larger opponents "head on" (so to speak), but rather were nimble on fought on ground and terms of THEIR choosing.
                          • Both opponents rectified their problems.
                          • Both Lee and Hannibal got lazy, complacent, and arrogant.
                          • Both were defeated decisively by opponents largely using their very own tactics on ground and terms chosen by their opponents.
                          • Carthage is a salt flat, Sherman razed the South.
                          • Yet both, while completely defeated, are revered to this day when in fact, people should study as much about how Scipio Africanus and Grant ground their dicks into the dirt.
                           
                          #39 Detroitgator, Nov 10, 2019
                          Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
                        • stephenPE

                          stephenPE Senior Member
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                          Why do you hate that term?

                          as for the last 8 posts I am reminded of this discussion...........

                          Sooo I hope you are being original in here.............
                           

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