The Civil War Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gatoravatara, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. AugustaGator

    AugustaGator Junior Member
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    18,430
    Oxbucks:
    $4,931
    Ratings:
    +7,262 / -223
    Thank you.

    Not sure how to implement number 2 (dig in but maintain mobility). I assume you really mean fight when in a defensible position and let them eat lead trying to get to you? Otherwise run and prevent a siege?

    Agree only way to win was by them saying screw it, you aren't worth it. To me (my limited knowledge), it is about the dumbest war out there.
     
  2. AlexDaGator

    AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
    Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    Messages:
    7,613
    Oxbucks:
    $6,113
    Ratings:
    +12,888 / -34
    Like the Japanese in WWII, it had to be quick. Once US industrial might kicked in, Japan had no chance. Similarly, once the North had geared up for war, the South had no chance.

    What Navy did the Union possess at the beginning of the war? Nuthin'. Only a handful of ships when Lincoln announced the blockade of the South. It was a joke. By the time Gettysburg rolled around, the massive and growing Union fleet was crushing the Southern economy. Coupled with the fall of Vicksburg and full control of the Mississippi, the South had no chance without massive foreign intervention (not mere recognition, actual military intervention). I believe by the end of the war, the Union Navy was the largest in the world (in terms of sheer numbers of modern ships, though certainly not as powerful as the Royal Navy or probably even the French Navy). It was simply too late for the South.

    Other than capturing supplies from the Union, how was the South going to get the material needed to wage war? It had no way to export its cotton or import muskets or cannon.

    The story I have heard is that one of Lee's primary goals in his invasion of the North was a massive Union supply depot in Harrisburg. There is a reason why those supplies were so vital to the Confederacy.


    Alex.
     
  3. Minister of Information

    Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2018
    Messages:
    678
    Oxbucks:
    $917
    Ratings:
    +924 / -203
    Strange as it may seem, in July of 1863 Lincoln was on shaky political ground. In fact many of the victorious units at Gettysburg had to be diverted to New York City to suppress massive draft riots only days after the battle. Suppose Trimble’s plan came to fruition as Lee envisioned. Not only would the political fallout of another union catastrophe have been fatal to the war effort, there are legitimate questions about what the effects to law and order would have been with the Army of the Potomac annihilated and a victorious Lee menacing Baltimore, Philadelphia... New York. Strong as the union industry was, politically and in terms of morale it was almost spent. Strength cannot be projected outwards from an environment of open insurrection.

    This was a close, close thing.
     
    • Detroitgator

      Detroitgator General Factotum
      Lifetime Member

      Joined:
      Jul 15, 2014
      Messages:
      14,856
      Oxbucks:
      $7,915
      Ratings:
      +14,533 / -66
      Of course it was a close thing... WWII was a close thing, several times. Korea was a close thing. Lee made several big mistakes at Gettysburg. They weren't "risks," they were gambles at best, and not a single one of them came to fruition as he envisioned. They were mistakes, and he kept doubling down on them... the worst mistake any gambler makes is continuing to double down on the first lost bet because, like Lee, gamblers don't have unlimited funds to double down with.
       
      • Minister of Information

        Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

        Joined:
        Aug 17, 2018
        Messages:
        678
        Oxbucks:
        $917
        Ratings:
        +924 / -203
        The echelon attack was not a mistake.
         
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
        Lifetime Member

        Joined:
        Jul 15, 2014
        Messages:
        14,856
        Oxbucks:
        $7,915
        Ratings:
        +14,533 / -66
        Yeah... great on paper. It also assumed that, as they had in the past, Union troops would fall back, like they always did, but they didn't this time. He also planned it for the morning, but didn't get the order out until almost noon. Then Longstreet fukked around because he didn't like attacking things, he liked defending (which Lee should have done on Day One on better ground). So the "morning" attack didn't happen until damn near dinner time. Oh, and Hunt's employment of artillery was decisive... because Meade let him control the Army artillery. And on and on and on...

        Sure, the "echelon attack" was awesome... in the past.

        And please, spare me the "they got into the lines... twice!"

        It didn't work because Lee thought the Union army was going to do the same thing they had always done, but they didn't.
         
      • Minister of Information

        Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

        Joined:
        Aug 17, 2018
        Messages:
        678
        Oxbucks:
        $917
        Ratings:
        +924 / -203
        It failed because Mahone did not continue it as ordered. Any attack of this nature that is not properly supported will inevitably be repulsed. You forget that artillery heroics such as withdrawal by fire aren’t indicators of a defense that is succeeding.
         
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
        Lifetime Member

        Joined:
        Jul 15, 2014
        Messages:
        14,856
        Oxbucks:
        $7,915
        Ratings:
        +14,533 / -66
        It's called "trading space for time"... lots of smart people do it.

        As for Mahone, sounds to me like you're saying that Lee didn't have very good control of his army (order to attack in the "morning" didn't even go out until just before noon), his Corps commanders (Longstreet fukked around for hours before attacking), and on down to Mahone.

        And it all started with "IF" only Stuart would have done his job, but he didn't, and that was the first domino of many.
         
      • Minister of Information

        Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

        Joined:
        Aug 17, 2018
        Messages:
        678
        Oxbucks:
        $917
        Ratings:
        +924 / -203
        There are certainly strengths and weaknesses of small staff vs large staff command structure. On the one hand the commander lacks direct control of his army and so must trust his subordinates. On the other hand the commander lacks direct control of his army and so must trust his subordinates. Lee was definitely the end of the line as far as small staff command structure, but so long as he had able subordinates, he used it to significant advantage.
         
      • AlexDaGator

        AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
        Lifetime Member

        Joined:
        Jun 19, 2014
        Messages:
        7,613
        Oxbucks:
        $6,113
        Ratings:
        +12,888 / -34
        Was it really?

        Let's say the Union center is breached. The Confederates are able to fight off the Union reinforcements. Now what? The Army of the Potomac isn't annihilated. How does Lee exploit the opening? This isn't the Union Army of First Bull Run. It is a tougher, more disciplined, better led and better equipped army. I don't see a Cannae-style catastrophe for the Union at Gettysburg. Maybe an Antietam-style "tie" or maybe a nominal Confederate victory. Even if he somehow exploits the breach into a rout of the remaining Union forces, Lee has still lost an awful lot of his own men. The Confederacy can't replace men and material the way the Union can. How many pyrrhic victories before Lee has no army left?

        What's Lee's play? I don't think he can destroy the Army of the Potomac. Can he take the supplies at Harrisburg? Sure. That's probably his best play. Can he take Washington D.C.? I don't think so. Again, this isn't First Bull Run. By 1863, D.C. was very well defended. Could Lee have besieged D.C. the way Grant besieged Petersburg a year later? I really don't think so.

        I was in greater agreement with you regarding Lincoln's political situation but I've moved away from it over the years. The NYC riots were recent Irish immigrants upset at being drafted to fight in a war and for a cause they didn't care for. This is a pretty localized problem--it's not going to extend beyond NYC and maybe another high immigration urban center. It's not going to matter in Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, or rural areas of Massachusetts, NY, or Pennsylvania. The South's best hope was McClellan beating Lincoln for the presidency in 1864 but that election was more than a year after Gettysburg and Lincoln won pretty easily. I am just not seeing it.

        Historians love big, decisive battles that end wars (Hastings, Yorktown, etc.) or at least big turning points (Stalingrad, Midway, etc.). It doesn't always work out that way though. Look at WWI. What big, decisive battle did the German army lose? It didn't. It was the blockade and attrition. Germany didn't lose the war in the trenches. They lost it in Germany. Similarly, I don't think the Union needed any big, flashy victory over the Confederacy. The blockade coupled with the powerful application of overwhelming force was enough for the Union to grind the Confederacy into dust even if they lost the bodycount in every single battle. I'm saying even if Lee somehow ekes out a victory at Gettysburg, the ultimate outcome of the war does not change.



        Alex.
         
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
        Lifetime Member

        Joined:
        Jul 15, 2014
        Messages:
        14,856
        Oxbucks:
        $7,915
        Ratings:
        +14,533 / -66
        First, I’m not sure which army you’re talking about. Meade gave his orders the night before each day, then trusted his people to do their jobs.

        So when do you think the ARMY order for the MORNING attack should have been given to the CORPS commanders so that the DIVISION and BRIGADE commanders could be ready for the MORNING attack? Cuz to me, 11 am the morning of the morning attack is a bit late.
         
      • Minister of Information

        Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

        Joined:
        Aug 17, 2018
        Messages:
        678
        Oxbucks:
        $917
        Ratings:
        +924 / -203
        If attacks can only be made under ideal conditions, then attacks cannot be made.

        Meade had a headquarters staff whose job it was to ensure that his orders were followed by his subordinates in the field in a timely and efficient fashion. Lee had no such thing, which had both disadvantages and potential advantages.
         
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
        Lifetime Member

        Joined:
        Jul 15, 2014
        Messages:
        14,856
        Oxbucks:
        $7,915
        Ratings:
        +14,533 / -66
        :facepalm:

        That’s your explanation for why an Army level order for a morning attack was not even issued from Lee’s headquarters until nearly noon on the morning of the attack?
         
      • Minister of Information

        Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

        Joined:
        Aug 17, 2018
        Messages:
        678
        Oxbucks:
        $917
        Ratings:
        +924 / -203
        Sh!t happens?
         
        • Detroitgator

          Detroitgator General Factotum
          Lifetime Member

          Joined:
          Jul 15, 2014
          Messages:
          14,856
          Oxbucks:
          $7,915
          Ratings:
          +14,533 / -66
          :lol:

          Good point... Lee's schit peanut shell coffee (or whatever the fuk they made it out of because they had nuthin) probably took 12 hours to boil!
           
        • Spurdog98

          Spurdog98 Well-Known Member

          Joined:
          Jan 3, 2018
          Messages:
          1,067
          Oxbucks:
          $1,040
          Ratings:
          +1,041 / -54
          Lee could have taken DC at the first battle of Bull Run, he didn't...big mistake.
           
          • Detroitgator

            Detroitgator General Factotum
            Lifetime Member

            Joined:
            Jul 15, 2014
            Messages:
            14,856
            Oxbucks:
            $7,915
            Ratings:
            +14,533 / -66
            Instead of decisively engaging at Gettysburg, he coulda gone to Baltimore and even DC, but didn't... fuk Stuart! ;)
             
          • Detroitgator

            Detroitgator General Factotum
            Lifetime Member

            Joined:
            Jul 15, 2014
            Messages:
            14,856
            Oxbucks:
            $7,915
            Ratings:
            +14,533 / -66
            Here is a good video that I think those interested would enjoy, because he looks at it in its TOTALITY... wish the camera would focus on the screen, rather than the speaker.

            @AlexDaGator video answers a lot of your questions.

             
            #98 Detroitgator, Nov 12, 2019
            Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
            • Minister of Information

              Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

              Joined:
              Aug 17, 2018
              Messages:
              678
              Oxbucks:
              $917
              Ratings:
              +924 / -203
              Yankee red ass. Exhibit 47b.
               
            • Detroitgator

              Detroitgator General Factotum
              Lifetime Member

              Joined:
              Jul 15, 2014
              Messages:
              14,856
              Oxbucks:
              $7,915
              Ratings:
              +14,533 / -66
              Winning (and won).

              You're still going on and on about how the South coulda won, and calling me a red ass? OK.
               

            Share This Page

            The Box

            Help

            You don't have the necessary permissions to use the chat.

            • About Us

              Our community sprung up when the Gatorsports message board was shut down in the summer of 2014. We pride ourselves on offering Gator-biased, yet critical discussion among people of all different backgrounds. We are working every day to make sure our community is the best Gator message board you will find.
            • Like us on Facebook

            • Buy us a Zima!

              The management works very hard to make sure the community is running the best software, best designs, and all the other bells and whistles. Care to buy us a non-alcoholic Zima? We'd really appreciate it! Just click the "Donate" tab at the top of the page.