The Civil War Thread

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gatoravatara, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. stephenPE

    stephenPE Senior Member
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    :shocked3:
    OMG I almost pissed myself. He must have had pictures of he casting director to get that part............
     
    • AlexDaGator

      AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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      It’s a stain on Ike’s record that he gave Monty the green light for Market Garden.

      Alex.
       
      • Gator By Marriage

        Gator By Marriage A convert to Gatorism
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        They made up for it with Sam Elliott as Buford. And the guy who played Hancock actually kinda looked like Hancock.
         
        • Detroitgator

          Detroitgator General Factotum
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          While I agree with you, there was TREMENDOUS pressure from Marshall/Washington and Churchill to use airborne troops EN MASSE, and it hadn't happened yet in the war. I mean EN MASSE. For instance, for D-Day, instead of just dropping behind lines to seize typical things, they wanted to take airfields and build a massive airhead DEEP behind the lines... that kind of stuff (which woulda been a disaster, but, hey, politics!). Monty knew this, wanted glory, so cooked up Market-Garden. Ike had tremendous pressure to green light it, it wasn't just his decision.
           
          • gatorev12

            gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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            Enjoyed the historical debate between you and MOI...but to chime in here: while I think Monty is definitely overrated (the British needed one of their own to be celebrated and he was the closest thing they had to an able commander)--but the full historical record shows that he did less with more and doesn't deserve the credit he was given.

            That said: I've always felt Market Garden was a bold plan and I appreciated the ambition. For all the faulty assumptions and messy logistics, the plan itself almost succeeded. Monty might be a self-absorbed blowhard, but his statement that it was 90% successful wasn't wrong--something Eisenhower and others backed him up on in their own memoirs on the subject.
             
            • AlexDaGator

              AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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              Bill Slim. Did more with less. Innovative. Underrated.


              Alex.
               
            • gatorev12

              gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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              I agree with you about all of those things; but unfortunately, I doubt he'll ever get his proper due in this day and age, given the credible allegations of child sexual abuse in Australia.

              I'm not one who judges historical figures by modern-day mores (one of the most anti-intellectual undercurrents of our present time); but kiddie molestation is pretty much universally reviled in any day and age. Well, at least for now--I don't doubt the "progressives" will do their damndest to change public opinion on this too (as some are already trying).
               
            • AlexDaGator

              AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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              Agreed, I made a similar point when he came up a few years ago. Strictly as a military leader, he was the best of the WWII army Brits. My runner-up might be Orde Wingate. Slim pickings to be sure.




              Alex.
               
              #128 AlexDaGator, Nov 13, 2019
              Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
            • SamIamGator92

              SamIamGator92 Gator1st - 2nd to last Jedi - Semi-Pumper
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              I thought this thread was going to be about Team Trump vs. Deep State Leftist Dems.
               
              • AugustaGator

                AugustaGator Junior Member
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                We never learn.
                 
              • itsgr82bag8r

                itsgr82bag8r Political Forum Fire Starter
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                Fascinating and compelling historical information in this thread. Well done!
                 
              • Spurdog98

                Spurdog98 Well-Known Member

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                "Shelby weren't at Cold Harbor, you'r a goddamn liar".

                Correct. Beauregard, Jackson, Johnston. So now I blame Jackson.
                 
              • gatorev12

                gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                The WWI expression "lions led by donkeys" immediately comes to mind. It's surprising to observe the paucity of able British commanders in the two world wars, given the tenacious soldiers they had fighting for them.
                 
              • AlexDaGator

                AlexDaGator The Hammer of Thor
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                I do wonder how well Slim and Wingate would have fared against the Germans, you know, whether their success was bolstered by quality of their opponents. Frankly, I don't know much at all about the Japanese generals. I can rattle off a handful of Japanese Admirals and discuss their strengths and weaknesses but I can only name two generals off the top of my head (Yama****a and Homa). I can't even remember the name of dude at Iwo Jima.

                Alex.
                 
              • gatorev12

                gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                General Kuribayashi was the guy at Iwo--they made us study his tactics and leadership in the Marines.

                I tend to think both would have done well against the Germans--perhaps even would have had better success. The German generals were pretty linear in their tactical and strategic planning: very Prussian in how they went about things. Blitzkrieg wasn't necessarily innovative, it was just using old-school cavalry tactics with modern weapons (rapid armored thrusts instead of cavalry leading the advance--and if you think of Stukas and close air support as essentially being aerial artillery, the tactics become even more comparable to what Clausewitz taught at the Prussian Staff College). No question that the Japanese didn't have their best guys in Burma though and the Brits did pretty well as a result.
                 
              • Detroitgator

                Detroitgator General Factotum
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                No.... stop... please, stop.
                 
                • gatorev12

                  gatorev12 Well-Known Member

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                  Come at me bro!
                  Lol, let's hear your rebuttal. :cool:

                  It's likely to be a slow work day, so I'm all yours.
                  :popcorn:
                   
                  • Minister of Information

                    Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

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                    99764576-11D2-44DB-8B8F-F8FF20C6D48D.gif

                    FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
                     
                    • Detroitgator

                      Detroitgator General Factotum
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                      I don't have time to play today... It's not that you are "wrong," it's that you mix too many things together in a short space, some of which are true/partially true with stuff I flat out disagree with (translation: you are wrong! ;) ).

                      Listen, if they were so linear in their planning and application and were basically doing nothing new, and given that the first writings were by JFC Fuller and a bit by Liddell-Hart, how in the fuk were they they only nation on earth to be applying this new technology (that everyone had) with basically old (your take) doctrine?

                      PS Blitzkrieg was a tern never used by the Germans... they thought it was a stupid term.
                       
                    • Minister of Information

                      Minister of Information Making A List, Checking It Twice

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                      There’s a tendency in overly scientific organizations towards conservatism, and such was the case with the German general staff. Hitler’s sheer audacity by comparison, made him seem like a genius. For a time.
                       

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