Trump's withdrawal from Syria

Discussion in 'Politics' started by g8tr72, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. leogator

    leogator Well-Known Member

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    Of course, all knowing @Detroitgator :p:D
     
  2. Ancient Reptile

    Ancient Reptile Senior Member
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    Kudos for honest admission. Have you considered the possibility that the entire Arab spring was a giant fiasco? I think Obama's mideastern foreign policy will be viewed by historians as one of the greatest debacles in the history of American foreign policy.
     
    • leogator

      leogator Well-Known Member

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      Like GW before him the pipe dream of spreading western style democracy throughout the world is just that, a pipe dream.
       
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
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        You realize I was in full agreement with you, right?
         
      • leogator

        leogator Well-Known Member

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        Your brand of sarcasm escaped me, I admit! :)
         
      • Detroitgator

        Detroitgator General Factotum
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        FYI - I try to throw the wink in at the end to indicate sarcasm is on
         
      • crosscreekcooter

        crosscreekcooter Cunning Linguist
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      • Politigator

        Politigator L-boy's Cousin

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        It didn't turn out well, but I think many of the events were beyond our control. Egypt happened on its own. We just provided some minor cheerleading on the side. If we had decided to support Mubarak in a big way it would have looked really bad for us. Many of the elements that caused the overthrow were secular and semi moderate. Even the military decided to go along. The problem was the entire country is much more religious and they elected a wokf in sheep's clothing that ultimately leaned towards theocracy.

        In the end it almost had to happen, to prove to us and the world that the region is not ready for democracy in any substantial form.
         
      • Durty South Swamp

        Durty South Swamp doodley doodley doo!
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        So basically what you're saying is it happened regardless of our involvement, there was no right side to get on board with, and theres just no farming of democracy in these areas and cultures.

        Welcome to MAGA foreign policy, glad to have you aboard.
         
        • Politigator

          Politigator L-boy's Cousin

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          I'm not sure you me and swampdonkey are on the same page definition wise.

          Neoconservatism - Wikipedia

          Neoconservativism actually started out as neoliberalism, and among other things advocating actively and forcefully promoting our world views. Paul Wolfawitz was a prominent neoconservative. Neoconservatives dreamed of remaking the middle east in a more democratic form. It contrasts with more traditional conservatism and paleo conservativism that focused primarily or even exclusively on what is in best for US.

          George W Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were very influenced by Neoconservative elements. John McCain and Lindsey Graham have been very active Neoconservatives, they didn't seem to see any conflict that we shouldn't jump into in order to promote our values.

          Hillary actually turned out to have heavy neocon leanings foreign policy wise. It is one of the things I liked least about her. Obama wasn't a neocon philosophically but he was influenced by them in Arab Spring.

          As far as I can tell Trump is not a neocon at all.
           
        • Swamp Donkey

          Swamp Donkey It's the sound your mother makes
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          There was nothing western or democratic about the Muslim Brotherhood and AQ affiliates we were supporting. Nothing.
           
        • Swamp Donkey

          Swamp Donkey It's the sound your mother makes
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          Neocon? :lmao2:

          Trump is a 70s democrat, and a populist.

          Go look at the 70s and 80s democrat platforms and get back with me.
           
          • Politigator

            Politigator L-boy's Cousin

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            I'm not sure what Maga foreign policy is, but I mostly agree with what you said before that.

            I actually don't disagree with some of trumps FP positions. I disagree with his cozykng up to Putin. I disagree with antagonize Europe and other allies and stroking authoritarians. I disagree with backing out of negotiated treaties like TPP, Iran deal and climate deal. I don't want a neocon, but I think some level of multilateralism is appropriate. Trump seems to view everything as transactional. Everythjng is a two way battle for a bigger piece of a pie. Everything is a deal. The biggest component of who Trump likes is who personally strokes him and says nice things to him.
             
          • leogator

            leogator Well-Known Member

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            We did not support any movements, we just supported the idea of democracy in dictator ruled countries. We were naive in what we expected to come out of it. The only two places we actively got involved were Libya and Syria.
             
            #94 leogator, Dec 22, 2018
            Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
            • Detroitgator

              Detroitgator General Factotum
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              If promotion above O-6 were truly a meritocracy, Macregor would’ve retired as a 4 star, but he didn’t play the game per Durty’s post. He was an absolute stud of a commander and a BRILLIANT strategic mind.
               
              • Detroitgator

                Detroitgator General Factotum
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                Neither TPP nor Iran deal are TREATIES... and neither ever would be
                 
              • Detroitgator

                Detroitgator General Factotum
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                Wrong... and no sarcasm.
                 
                • Detroitgator

                  Detroitgator General Factotum
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                  Cheerleading? Yeah
                   
                • leogator

                  leogator Well-Known Member

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                  Yeah, point out where I am wrong.
                   
                • Detroitgator

                  Detroitgator General Factotum
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                  You might want to check into who directly helped Egyptian protesters mobilize and move via social media before Obama did his “cheerleading”.

                  Also, not doing, or saying, anything when people stood up in Iran is actually involvement
                   

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