Tuesday Favorites….military strategist and tactician

[Detroitgator]

The story I heard was that George C. Marshall confused Van Fleet with another office with a similar name who may have been an alcoholic or something. Accordingly, he didn't promote Van Fleet the way he did his classmates for much of WWII. Finally somebody told him he had Van Fleet mixed up with somebody else and he gave Van Fleet the opportunity. Van Fleet shined when he had the chance but by then WWII was nearly over. He helped save Greece from the communists in the years immediately after WWII and was outstanding in the Korean War.

And...he had the highest winning percentage of any UF football coach until Spurrier.

And...my uncle was friends with his son back in the day.



Alex.

The Greece story is fascinating, under written about, massively under appreciated for its significance, and mainly forgotten other than from the Brotherhood of War first book

 

[Detroitgator]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Geronimo...

Read tons about him as a kid

 

[wrpgator]

Interesting choice. Did not expect to see his name here. I'm a fan.

There is some controversy whether he got fired or not. Clearly he didn't get along with Omar Bradley. He did a fantastic job with the Timberwolves--building, training, and then fighting. Can't judge him on strategy though.


Alex.

“find 'em, fix 'em, fight 'em" ... "take the high ground" ... "inflict maximum damage to the enemy with minimum casualties to ourselves, night attack, night attack, night attack."
Aggressive, loved by his troops they were considered by Bradley to be “undisciplined” and he relieved him of his divisional command unfairly I think. I’m not a fan of Omar Bradley.

 

[AlexDaGator]

I'll throw a couple names out to debate after the game.


Strategy and Tactics--Genghis Khan (or does Subutai deserve the credit?)


Tactics--Bellisarius


Strategy and Tactics--Shaka Zulu


Strategy--Mao


Tactics--Ridgeway (my vote for underrated American general)


Strategy and Tactics--Zhukov (not the biggest fan, but surprised nobody mentioned him)


Strategy and Tactics--Attilla


Tactics--Gustavus Adolphus (hat tip Sturgill)


Strategy and Tactics--Kutuzov (Zhukov before Zhukov)


Strategy--Cortez and/or Pizzarro


Tactics--Von Mannstein (the Germans thought he was the best they had)





Alex.

 

[wrpgator]

Good on tactics, but he was an utter failure in terms of strategy. He despised Chiang Kai-Shek (who he called peanut head). He failed to see the danger in Mao. Losing China to the Reds may have been the greatest strategic blunder of WWII.

Alex.

I always thought Stilwell was following orders in trying to get Chaing to cooperate with Mao against the Japanese. Chaing hoarded Lend Lease equipment to be used in the fight against Japan anticipating a fight later with the communists. All Chinese were and are thieves. Stilwell always had an uphill fight to get Washington to properly resource his campaigns.

 

[B52G8rAC]

Read tons about him as a kid

He lost.

 

[Seedy]

Forrest...Forrest Gump

 

[gatorev12]

Interesting call with Giap.

The fought the Japanese, the French, and the Americans and came out on top. Strong resume.

How does he make your list and the Taliban (who likewise utilized insurgency to defeat the US) do not?

Plus the Chinese too (he beat them in the late 70s when they invaded).

I think the difference is Giap's overall resume includes more than just insurgency/guerilla warfare though. His work vs the French at Dien Bien Phu was a tactical masterstroke and his career also had offensive tactical displays/strategies (defeating South Vietnam and Cambodia in separate invasions), plus defeating Chinese forces and retaking the territory they seized required more than just insurgent tactics.

The other answer is that "the Taliban" didn't really have much of a strategy other than "we'll wait until they get bored." And their leadership turned over several times from the early 90s through present. They have a political face, sure; but their military commanders were pretty steadily targeted and eliminated for much of our conflict with them to the extent that it's a largely different group from when they started; so can't really attribute tactical or strategic success to any singular person like we can Giap.

 

[wrpgator]

The story I heard was that George C. Marshall confused Van Fleet with another office with a similar name who may have been an alcoholic or something. Accordingly, he didn't promote Van Fleet the way he did his classmates for much of WWII. Finally somebody told him he had Van Fleet mixed up with somebody else and he gave Van Fleet the opportunity. Van Fleet shined when he had the chance but by then WWII was nearly over. He helped save Greece from the communists in the years immediately after WWII and was outstanding in the Korean War.

And...he had the highest winning percentage of any UF football coach until Spurrier.

And...my uncle was friends with his son back in the day.



Alex.

That did happen with the name mix up but I thought it only occurred one time. He made Major 1924 and was still a colonel up to early 1944. He did not aspire to Pentagon assignments but more junior officers were promoted over him at times. After WW2 he saved Greece from almost certain communist takeover.

 

[Gator By Marriage]

I don't disagree. If Stonewall Jackson had lived, the outcome of the war would have been different. If only longer and more distructive. But he died. I think Lee was hamstrung by the actual love he had for his men.

A lot of ifs of course, but if it was Jackson in the place of Ewell on the first day at Gettysburg the battle might have turned out quite differently. (Lee gets the blame in my book for giving Ewell a vague order. I suspect he was used to being able to get away with it with Jackson.)

 

[AlexDaGator]

A lot of ifs of course, but if it was Jackson in the place of Ewell on the first day at Gettysburg the battle might have turned out quite differently. (Lee gets the blame in my book for giving Ewell a vague order. I suspect he was used to being able to get away with it with Jackson.)

Gettysburg was lost on the first day when the Union took the favorable terrain.

Longstreet knew it.

Lee should have withdrawn and found a favorable spot between Gettysburg and DC and forced the Union to attack him.

Alex.

 

[Gator By Marriage]

Gettysburg was lost on the first day when the Union took the favorable terrain.

Longstreet knew it.

Lee should have withdrawn and found a favorable spot between Gettysburg and DC and forced the Union to attack him.

Alex.

Totally agree, but this was a theoretical exercise imaging what if Jackson had survived Chancellorsville and was leading the Confederate corps on the Union extreme right (Culp’s Hill). Lee’s order to Ewell was to take the position “if practicable.” Ewell was new to commanding a corps - though he had been an excellent divisional commander - and was tentative. (He was probably also probably influenced for the worst by Early.)

Based on previous performances, Jackson probably would have attacked. Union forces were not yet well dug in; a situation that totally changed by the second day. Had Jackson launched a successful attack, the Union’s position would not have been as favorable. Impossible to say of course.

 

[AlexDaGator]

I’ll throw out a couple more:

Tamerlane and Frederick the Great.




Alex.

 

[gatorev12]

I’ll throw out a couple more:

Tamerlane and Frederick the Great.

In terms of pure resume, it's hard to go against Tamerlane. He beat the Persians, Ottomans, Russians, Poles, Mongols, Indians, and the Chinese. As a leader, I don't think he ever lost a battle (he lost a battle early in his careee when he was head of an army, but not the top guy in charge), if memory serves.

The only reason he isn't lauded more is because of his sheer butchery and brutality when he did conquer a new territory.

He single-handedly is responsible for exterminating Christianity in Central Asia and his butchery in India is a big reason why Hindus hate Muslims as much as they do.

Oddly enough, he died of a cold before he could conquer China--but the Ming Dynasty pissed him off so much that he supposedly said to his court that he wanted to wipe China off the map (and given the strength of his armies and Chinese weakness at the time, he could've done it).

 

[gatorev12]

Khalid ibn al-Walid was another famous undefeated general and leader--he's the guy responsible for uniting the Arabian peninsula

Not as well-known in the West, but he's a hero in the Middle East

 

[wrpgator]

Gettysburg was lost on the first day when the Union took the favorable terrain.

Longstreet knew it.

Lee should have withdrawn and found a favorable spot between Gettysburg and DC and forced the Union to attack him.

Alex.

Longstreet became the automatic scapegoat for Southerners, especially when, after the war he became a Republican and took federal jobs.

After Gettysburg, Lee sent Longstreet south to reinforce Bragg’s army south of Chattanooga. Bragg was inept, paranoid and a jealous commander. Longstreet at Chickamauga almost rolled the Union Army commanded by the equally inept Rosecrans. Were it not for George Thomas, he would have done so. But Bragg undermined Longstreet fearing he was there to spy on him and take his command. He sent him on a circuitous march up into Tennessee without adequate provisions or troops and removed the threat to Bragg’s ego.

*I know I’m not informing you of any new insights, it’s just fun to reinforce my old readings by writing about them.
wrp

 

[Detroitgator]

Longstreet became the automatic scapegoat for Southerners, especially when, after the war he became a Republican and took federal jobs.

After Gettysburg, Lee sent Longstreet south to reinforce Bragg’s army south of Chattanooga. Bragg was inept, paranoid and a jealous commander. Longstreet at Chickamauga almost rolled the Union Army commanded by the equally inept Rosecrans. Were it not for George Thomas, he would have done so. But Bragg undermined Longstreet fearing he was there to spy on him and take his command. He sent him on a circuitous march up into Tennessee without adequate provisions or troops and removed the threat to Bragg’s ego.

*I know I’m not informing you of any new insights, it’s just fun to reinforce my old readings by writing about them.
wrp

For all the BS history regarding the "brilliance" of Confederate generals, they were largely a schitshow in terms of operating anything beyond a single corps (i.e., couldn't work/coordinate with each other to save their lives). On the Union side, that petty personal schit was pretty much over with Gettysburg/Vicksburg.

 

[wrpgator]

For all the BS history regarding the "brilliance" of Confederate generals, they were largely a schitshow in terms of operating anything beyond a single corps (i.e., couldn't work/coordinate with each other to save their lives). On the Union side, that petty personal schit was pretty much over with Gettysburg/Vicksburg.

Longstreet’s talents were squandered. If Lee had taken his advice and positioned his army between Gettysburg and DC, this might have forced the Union to abondon their superior position on the high ground and also draw off significant forces from the Vicksburg theater to come rescue panicky Washington.
Lee was a butcher and wanted another Chancellorsville in Yankee land. Longstreet knew it was a doomed campaign.

 

[Detroitgator]

Longstreet’s talents were squandered. If Lee had taken his advice and positioned his army between Gettysburg and DC, this might have forced the Union to abondon their superior position on the high ground and also draw off significant forces from the Vicksburg theater to come rescue panicky Washington.
Lee was a butcher and wanted another Chancellorsville in Yankee land. Longstreet knew it was a doomed campaign.

Newt Gingrich's "alternate history" books actually really good. He had Longstreet convincing Lee to pull out of Gettysburg after the first day and moving on Washington in the manner you said... in the manner you said. In the end, the war had the same eventual outcome, but it was interesting. Same with Pearl Harbor had the Japanese followed up with another wave that hit the oil/fuel farms and dry dock facilities (both of which were farrrr more important than 8 obsolete battleships).

 

[AlexDaGator]

Khalid ibn al-Walid was another famous undefeated general and leader--he's the guy responsible for uniting the Arabian peninsula

Not as well-known in the West, but he's a hero in the Middle East

Heard of him, but don’t know any of his battles or wars.

Is he thrown in for an Arab DEI contribution or was he legit deserving of being named with Caesar, Hannibal, Ghengis, Alexander, etc.?

The Arabian peninsula was sparsely populated back then. Not a lot of great walled cities or large professional standing armies for him to overcome (to keep it Muslim, not like Tamerlane’s conquests). Did he score some big wins outside Arabia? I just don’t know this guy.


Alex.