Tuesday Favorites….military strategist and tactician

B52G8rAC

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Lee lost the war and several battles in it. That's hardly the mark of "best of all time."

Especially when there's several examples of military strategists who never lost a battle or a war.
Easy to win when you get there first with the most. The best strategist are the one who draw out the inevitable loss so as to cost the enemy the most in terms of lives and treasure. I said Lee was a great strategist; if he had continued the war of attrition he envisioned, the North would have given up. By invading the North and pressing for victory at Gettysburg, his tactical mistakes probably cost the South its liberty.
 

Detroitgator

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Strategist: Robert E. Lee. No one else is even close. Tactician: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. However, I do think George Patton understood the genesis of modern mechanized war and applied those concepts as well as anyone on in the 20th century. (Is Van Fleet Hall still the ROTC building?)
Jackson was actually ten times the strategist Lee was, but Lee/Longstreet wouldn't listen to him.

Yes, Van Fleet Hall is still the ROTC building.
 

gatorev12

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Easy to win when you get there first with the most. The best strategist are the one who draw out the inevitable loss so as to cost the enemy the most in terms of lives and treasure. I said Lee was a great strategist; if he had continued the war of attrition he envisioned, the North would have given up. By invading the North and pressing for victory at Gettysburg, his tactical mistakes probably cost the South its liberty.

There's plenty of military commanders who had smaller armies, unfavorable tactical situations, and still emerged (consistently) victorious. That's why it's hard for me to put Lee in the top 10, given his unforced errors cost his side battles and ultimately the war.

At defensive warfare? Lee was superb. He made the best with what he was given, no question; and did better than most.

On the Confederate side (and, indeed, the whole war), I think Jackson was the best General in both tactics *and* strategy. As Deet mentioned: had Lee listened to him more, they might even have won.
 

Detroitgator

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There's plenty of military commanders who had smaller armies, unfavorable tactical situations, and still emerged (consistently) victorious. That's why it's hard for me to put Lee in the top 10, given his unforced errors cost his side battles and ultimately the war.

At defensive warfare? Lee was superb. He made the best with what he was given, no question; and did better than most.

On the Confederate side (and, indeed, the whole war), I think Jackson was the best General in both tactics *and* strategy. As Deet mentioned: had Lee listened to him more, they might even have won.
It's more a case of "they wouldn't have lost", that's what Jackson knew was important/angled for, but was ignored by the "geniuses"
 

Gator By Marriage

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On the Confederate side (and, indeed, the whole war), I think Jackson was the best General in both tactics *and* strategy. As Deet mentioned: had Lee listened to him more, they might even have won.
I dunno. After Chancellorsville, Lee’s army was in as good a position as they were for the entire war. (Though there is some merit to Longstreet’s assertion that the army could ill afford many more battles as costly.) A few days later Jackson was dead and not giving advice to anyone.
 

Spectator

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My cousin was Swartzkopf's right hand man during Desert Storm. He retired as the first ever JAG Regimental Command Sergeant Major. Before him it was Regimental Sergeant Major.
 

gardnerwebbgator

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In your opinion who was the best military strategist?

The best tactician?

Was there someone who encompassed both qualities equally?


I’ll hang up and watch you debate it out.
1a. Eisenhower
1b. Patton
 

B52G8rAC

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1a. Eisenhower
1b. Patton
I will sort of agree with Patton in the role of tactician. I don't think of Eisenhower as a strategist. He was the consumate logistician. As they say in War College, amatuers study tactics, dilettantes study strategy and professionals study logistics. In modern combat, the general that can command the greatest weight of shot on th enemy is likely to prevail. That means having the best Air Force.
 

gatorev12

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I will sort of agree with Patton in the role of tactician. I don't think of Eisenhower as a strategist. He was the consumate logistician. As they say in War College, amatuers study tactics, dilettantes study strategy and professionals study logistics. In modern combat, the general that can command the greatest weight of shot on th enemy is likely to prevail. That means having the best Air Force.

I don't think there's any question Eisenhower had the best Air Force in the conflict.

Would disagree that having the best Air Force is determinative though. Otherwise, we'd have won the Vietnam War and it certainly wasn't a lack of airpower that kept us from securing decisive victories in our last two conflicts.
 

B52G8rAC

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I don't think there's any question Eisenhower had the best Air Force in the conflict.

Would disagree that having the best Air Force is determinative though. Otherwise, we'd have won the Vietnam War and it certainly wasn't a lack of airpower that kept us from securing decisive victories in our last two conflicts.
Lack of will. Decisive victory means unconditional surrender, like Japan. Which means the unrestricted use of force to drive the enemy to surrender. "Conflicts" don't generate that degree of moral certitude. Wars do. Them or us; victory of death. The expenditure of natural treasure and blood should be based on that kind of certainty. Not just the advancement of "interests". WW II was the last time the nation had that. And airpower was applied in full measure to obtain absolute dominance over evil.
 

Back Alley Gator

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Lack of will. Decisive victory means unconditional surrender, like Japan. Which means the unrestricted use of force to drive the enemy to surrender. "Conflicts" don't generate that degree of moral certitude. Wars do. Them or us; victory of death. The expenditure of natural treasure and blood should be based on that kind of certainty. Not just the advancement of "interests". WW II was the last time the nation had that. And airpower was applied in full measure to obtain absolute dominance over evil.
We are a soft, feckless nation now. We couldn't muster even a fraction of the national will we exhibited in WW2. The idea of something as basic as a draft would be met with widespread riots. Not to mention the rationing, taxes and price controls that were put in place in the 40s.
 

wrpgator

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Strategist: Robert E. Lee. No one else is even close. Tactician: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. However, I do think George Patton understood the genesis of modern mechanized war and applied those concepts as well as anyone on in the 20th century. (Is Van Fleet Hall still the ROTC building?)
B-52, you’re a great American but like Belichick after Tom Brady left, Lee was far less effective after the loss of Stonewall Jackson. Jackson was superior to Lee and deserves top 10. Lee made his mark during a series of campaigns against inferior sad sack Union commanders. Too many times, Lee’s orders were ambiguous, vague and / or verbal.
JFC Fuller— a Brit general & military historian— book “Grant & Lee” is a very detailed study on this.
 
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Detroitgator

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B-52, you’re a great American but like Belichick after Tom Brady left, Lee was far less effective after the loss of Stonewall Jackson. Jackson was superior to Lee and deserves top 10. Lee made his mark during a series of campaigns against inferior sad sack Union commanders. Too many times, Lee’s orders were ambiguous, vague and / or verbal.
JFC Fuller— a Brit general & military historian— book “Grant & Lee” is is a very detailed study on this.
Fuller and Liddell-Hart are good reading.
 

wrpgator

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Lack of will. Decisive victory means unconditional surrender, like Japan. Which means the unrestricted use of force to drive the enemy to surrender. "Conflicts" don't generate that degree of moral certitude. Wars do. Them or us; victory of death. The expenditure of natural treasure and blood should be based on that kind of certainty. Not just the advancement of "interests". WW II was the last time the nation had that. And airpower was applied in full measure to obtain absolute dominance over evil.
Yes, 100%. Sherman and Grant eventually came to understand this too.
 

Detroitgator

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Lack of will. Decisive victory means unconditional surrender, like Japan. Which means the unrestricted use of force to drive the enemy to surrender. "Conflicts" don't generate that degree of moral certitude. Wars do. Them or us; victory of death. The expenditure of natural treasure and blood should be based on that kind of certainty. Not just the advancement of "interests". WW II was the last time the nation had that. And airpower was applied in full measure to obtain absolute dominance over evil.
"Unconditional Surrender" in WW II was a political blunder that then had to be followed through on, not any kind of national leadership genius.
 

gatorev12

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Lack of will. Decisive victory means unconditional surrender, like Japan. Which means the unrestricted use of force to drive the enemy to surrender. "Conflicts" don't generate that degree of moral certitude. Wars do. Them or us; victory of death. The expenditure of natural treasure and blood should be based on that kind of certainty. Not just the advancement of "interests". WW II was the last time the nation had that. And airpower was applied in full measure to obtain absolute dominance over evil.

We annihilated Iraq in 1990 with superior airpower without the widespread slaughter of civilians, so I'm not sure going back to the days of Le May is something needed for decisive victory either.

The world has changed, even if you have not.
 

wrpgator

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George Thomas deserves mention here too. He saved the Union Army from annihilation at Chickmauga when his commander Rosecrans panicked. He was another who did not self-promote and has not received the acclaim he deserves. He sometimes refused promotions when he felt he was not a good fit for the command offered. Too bad Burnside (and many others) did not do the same.
 

Detroitgator

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We annihilated Iraq in 1990 with superior airpower without the widespread slaughter of civilians, so I'm not sure going back to the days of Le May is something needed for decisive victory either.

The world has changed, even if you have not.
No, it really hasn't, we just think it has.
 

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