- Jul 24, 2020
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@CDGator kicked this ant pile then stood back to watch
@CDGator kicked this ant pile then stood back to watch
Did we win? The world has not changed; still sinful and evil without Christ. He is Risen!We annihilated Iraq in 1990 with superior airpower without the widespread slaughter of civilians, so I'm not sure going back to the days of Le May is something needed for decisive victory either.
The world has changed, even if you have not.
I don't disagree. If Stonewall Jackson had lived, the outcome of the war would have been different. If only longer and more distructive. But he died. I think Lee was hamstrung by the actual love he had for his men.B-52, you’re a great American but like Belichick after Tom Brady left, Lee was far less effective after the loss of Stonewall Jackson. Jackson was superior to Lee and deserves top 10. Lee made his mark during a series of campaigns against inferior sad sack Union commanders. Too many times, Lee’s orders were ambiguous, vague and / or verbal.
JFC Fuller— a Brit general & military historian— book “Grant & Lee” is a very detailed study on this.
No, it really hasn't, we just think it has.
My grandfather was his CPA when he lived in Bartow. I gather his language was very colorful.James Van Fleet was a great battlefield commander. He was not skilled in the art of military politics however, and he was passed over for promotions in favor of others because he didn't believe in self-promotion.
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Here he is as UF football coach, and held a dual role as professor of military science at UF.
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The last of the Van Fleet clan passed away in the early 2000s and a couple of antique dealers bought the estate. In their Winter Haven shop I found the plaque (signed by JVF) given by Gator Boosters, Inc to his last survivor--a niece--to commemorate his service to the University. It formerly hung in the "Will to Win" area at Florida Field and was given to the niece when a larger portrait was installed there. I bought it and donated it to UF ROTC in 2017. They were happy to have it back home at UF. James Van Fleet was a life-long Gator fan, retired for many years to a ranch north of Polk City and lived to be 100 yrs old.
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Did we win?
Oh, I thought you meant the last dust up in Iraq.Yes.
Quite obviously so.
Iraq was kicked out of Kuwait, the stated goal of the war.
Oh, I thought you meant the last dust up in Iraq.
I don't think I ever said that. My point is that in a real war, you know a fight for national existance, target selection and weapons employment are not constrained by politics. Shock and awe don't win wars. The continuous application of all the force available against the enemy's will and capability to wage war does. Carpet bombing has actually never been a thing BTW. It is a term made up by the author of Catch 22. Even the fire bombing of Japanese cities was an effort to eliminate the means of production for war material.I said 1990 in the post to clarify.
Airpower matters a great deal; but the (first) Gulf War undercuts your argument that Le May-style carpet bombing is needed for total victory.
Even the fire bombing of Japanese cities was an effort to eliminate the means of production for war material.
Hannibal is a classic example of "both" from antiquity; same with Alexander the Great.
In more modern times, it's been a bit more rare to have a brilliant tactician be an elite strategist. Mostly because the era of professional militaries have divided the two and there's less movement been the tactical to strategic during wartime itself.
The Civil War was the last big conflict where there was significant overlap between both (and several examples on each side where one could make that argument); but for a 20th Century example, I've always stuck by Giap as being the "best" example of both. And he's also a rare commodity in having been part of significant conflict across three decades of his career.
A favorite of mine has been Terrible Terry Allen
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Joseph "Vinegar Joe" Stilwell
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Good post...
I was thinking about it before posting. Hannibal will always be my "old time" favorite... I think I first started reading about him in 3rd or 4th Grade. The "modern" pick was the one I was struggling with because of that tactical/operational/strategic split you mentioned, but I think you nailed it with Giap... prior to reading you post that, von Manstein was my modern pick, but was struggling with it for the reason you stated.
Also, I don't care what anyone says, Grant still gets hosed in this department and is highly underrated.
I was a Hannibal fanboy back in the day, but even though he won all his battles in Italy, he lost the war. Why? Because he was incapable of taking a defended city (like Rome). His army was great in the field, but he lacked the capacity for siege warfare. That's gotta count against him.
Then, he lost to Scipio. One of the keys to Hannibal's success was his excellent Numidian (Berber) light cavalry. Some of these guys switched sides to ally with the Romans and that was fundamental to Roman victory. Not keeping all those guys on his side was a pretty big strategic failure by Hannibal.
Also, like Alexander inherited a great army and tactics from Philip, Hannibal inherited his army and tactics from Hamilcar.
I'd give Hannibal high marks for tactics, but not as much for strategy.
Also, Hannibal was almost certainly not Black. Carthage was a Phoenician colony. The Carthaginians were descendants of the Phoenicians and Hannibal would have been from an aristocratic Phoenician family line. There could have been some intermixing with the native North Africans like the Numidians but ehhhh......
Alex.
James Van Fleet was a great battlefield commander. He was not skilled in the art of military politics however, and he was passed over for promotions in favor of others because he didn't believe in self-promotion.
View attachment 68445
Here he is as UF football coach, and held a dual role as professor of military science at UF.
View attachment 68446
The last of the Van Fleet clan passed away in the early 2000s and a couple of antique dealers bought the estate. In their Winter Haven shop I found the plaque (signed by JVF) given by Gator Boosters, Inc to his last survivor--a niece--to commemorate his service to the University. It formerly hung in the "Will to Win" area at Florida Field and was given to the niece when a larger portrait was installed there. I bought it and donated it to UF ROTC in 2017. They were happy to have it back home at UF. James Van Fleet was a life-long Gator fan, retired for many years to a ranch north of Polk City and lived to be 100 yrs old.
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Strategist: Robert E. Lee. No one else is even close. Tactician: Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. However, I do think George Patton understood the genesis of modern mechanized war and applied those concepts as well as anyone on in the 20th century. (Is Van Fleet Hall still the ROTC building?)
George Thomas deserves mention here too. He saved the Union Army from annihilation at Chickmauga when his commander Rosecrans panicked. He was another who did not self-promote and has not received the acclaim he deserves. He sometimes refused promotions when he felt he was not a good fit for the command offered. Too bad Burnside (and many others) did not do the same.
Hannibal is a classic example of "both" from antiquity; same with Alexander the Great.
In more modern times, it's been a bit more rare to have a brilliant tactician be an elite strategist. Mostly because the era of professional militaries have divided the two and there's less movement been the tactical to strategic during wartime itself.
The Civil War was the last big conflict where there was significant overlap between both (and several examples on each side where one could make that argument); but for a 20th Century example, I've always stuck by Giap as being the "best" example of both. And he's also a rare commodity in having been part of significant conflict across three decades of his career.