Life Insurance

Pablos Tunnel

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I’m an agent, whole only works if you get in the game under age 28 as far an investment, then the premium becomes cost prohibitive vs term. As far as needs go, get enough to expunge all debt, pay for kids education and leave the spouse with at least 2.5 years of your highest income.

2.5 yrs of income!
I love my wife more than that. Life insurance is to replace the lifetime of income lost. If you are killed in a car accident, by say a Walmart truck, is your wife going to settle for only 2.5 yrs of income? No! She will sue for millions. Which is income lost plus pain & suffering. Who wants to leave say a young wife of 30 with a couple kids and debt only 2.5 yrs? SMH
 

Albert

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It still seems too low to me. From contributing $150k per year to the household, even with the heavy debt load you outlined, to contributing ~$30k per year ($375k x 8%), is a pretty dramatic dropoff. I'd look to have at least 2-3 times that (5-7.5 years) left to a working spouse, and 4 times that or more (10+ years) to a non-working spouse.
That’s why I said AT LEAST 2.5 years. Certainly you could go higher.
 

Albert

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2.5 yrs of income!
I love my wife more than that. Life insurance is to replace the lifetime of income lost. If you are killed in a car accident, by say a Walmart truck, is your wife going to settle for only 2.5 yrs of income? No! She will sue for millions. Which is income lost plus pain & suffering. Who wants to leave say a young wife of 30 with a couple kids and debt only 2.5 yrs? SMH
Read the my original post again. I said AT LEAST 2.5 years. By all means buy as much as you can stand. Mine is covered for well over a decade and I do quite well. 2.5 is the bare minimum.
 

78

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As a general rule, one-year renewable term for short-term needs, level-premium term for intermediate needs and cash-value life insurance for long-term needs.

Whole life with or without a term rider is still around, but it's seldom a good deal for anyone but the insurer. Universal life (fixed or variable) tends to work better. It's a marriage of term and cash accumulation.
 

EyeDocGator

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One advantage of accumulating cash value in whole life policies is that money is not attachable. In this litigious society, it may be worth giving up some potential investment profit for this protection.
 

78

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One advantage of accumulating cash value in whole life policies is that money is not attachable. In this litigious society, it may be worth giving up some potential investment profit for this protection.
Life insurance, annuities, retirement accounts and the homestead residence under FS 222.

Doctors being lawsuit targets esp appreciate the protection. So does OJ.
 

78

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True. Anyone who drives a car risks a lawsuit with damages far beyond typical $100,000/$300,000 coverage.
That, too. I usually recommend clients with considerable assets consider buying an umbrella policy for catastrophic risks. They're dirt cheap. But the extra coverage at the same time makes you an even bigger suit target.

Don't ya just love lawyers?
 

Pablos Tunnel

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That, too. I usually recommend clients with considerable assets consider buying an umbrella policy for catastrophic risks. They're dirt cheap. But the extra coverage at the same time makes you an even bigger suit target.

Don't ya just love lawyers?
Absolutley 78! Plowing money into a DB plan is also a great tool for at risk business owners and professionals.
 

Pablos Tunnel

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As a general rule, one-year renewable term for short-term needs, level-premium term for intermediate needs and cash-value life insurance for long-term needs.

Whole life with or without a term rider is still around, but it's seldom a good deal for anyone but the insurer. Universal life (fixed or variable) tends to work better. It's a marriage of term and cash accumulation.
Have to disagree on the UL. Most policies sold by bad agents are traps in the long run.
 

Albert

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Have to disagree on the UL. Most policies sold by bad agents are traps in the long run.
Something we can agree on for sure. UL policies sold in the 80’s under sky high interest rates made some insureds a small fortune, but rarely the case today. The only advantage today might be a company’s restriction on underwriting i.e. medical examination and health requirements for whole and term products. UL as a general rule is not as heavily underwritten.
 

78

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Have to disagree on the UL. Most policies sold by bad agents are traps in the long run.
It's a trap only if it's misrepresented. The buyer needs to be informed of the difference between current and guaranteed assumptions and what can happen over time. Costs can rise above current levels and interest rates can drop to the guaranteed minimum level, but the incidence of this happening is much less, esp with costs, than with LTC insurance.

Term on the other hand becomes unaffordable over time, even level term, which experiences dramatic premium increases at renewal.

Don't get me going on WL. The current iteration is a ripoff.
 

Pablos Tunnel

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It's a trap only if it's misrepresented. The buyer needs to be informed of the difference between current and guaranteed assumptions and what can happen over time. Costs can rise above current levels and interest rates can drop to the guaranteed minimum level, but the incidence of this happening is much less, esp with costs, than with LTC insurance.

Term on the other hand becomes unaffordable over time, even level term, which experiences dramatic premium increases at renewal.

Don't get me going on WL. The current iteration is a ripoff.
How is it a ripoff again if used properly? With net cash surrender values equal to or greater than 95% of the first yr premium paid, some polices are cheaper than term. Mutual company products. Net IRR of 2-6% dependent on age and class. Throw in the LOC of term costs and the rate of return increases. Understand not all clients have the cash flow to fund them. But again most agents will not sell these types because the commissions are only 1/4 - 1/3 of standard policies. We should talk offline.
 

Pablos Tunnel

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Something we can agree on for sure. UL policies sold in the 80’s under sky high interest rates made some insureds a small fortune, but rarely the case today. The only advantage today might be a company’s restriction on underwriting i.e. medical examination and health requirements for whole and term products. UL as a general rule is not as heavily underwritten.
Right, got to love the old “vanishing premiums” illustrations from the 80’s. SMH
 

78

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How is it a ripoff again if used properly? With net cash surrender values equal to or greater than 95% of the first yr premium paid, some polices are cheaper than term. Mutual company products. Net IRR of 2-6% dependent on age and class. Throw in the LOC of term costs and the rate of return increases. Understand not all clients have the cash flow to fund them. But again most agents will not sell these types because the commissions are only 1/4 - 1/3 of standard policies. We should talk offline.
I broke into financial services 30 years ago selling participating WL contracts like you describe. The commissions were ~ 60% of the first year premium. Large. That ought to give an idea how profitable they were to the insurers.

You're right. Not everyone can afford those premiums and sometimes they simply don't make sense.
 

Pablos Tunnel

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I broke into financial services 30 years ago selling participating WL contracts like you describe. The commissions were ~ 60% of the first year premium. Large. That ought to give an idea how profitable they were to the insurers.

You're right. Not everyone can afford those premiums and sometimes they simply don't make sense.

Actually term policies generate the most profits for any life insurer. Only 2% result in claims and reserve requirements are much lower. Commissions can be upwards of 100% of first year paid premiums. Its takes five years, with todays low fixed rates, for a mutual insurer to start making money on a whole life contract. Im not advocating either. All financial products have a use in the right circumstance. I appreciate your insight. Its uncommin today to come accross other professionals that really understand. The internet has made most lazy.
 

78

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Actually term policies generate the most profits for any life insurer. Only 2% result in claims and reserve requirements are much lower. Commissions can be upwards of 100% of first year paid premiums. Its takes five years, with todays low fixed rates, for a mutual insurer to start making money on a whole life contract. Im not advocating either. All financial products have a use in the right circumstance. I appreciate your insight. Its uncommin today to come accross other professionals that really understand. The internet has made most lazy.
They're all profitable, term included for the reason it is -- it's rented coverage over a specified period versus terminally owned. Most people drop it before they croak, many at separation of service from an employer at retirement.

I've got a UL joint and last survivor mortality cost illustration I'll share later. It's mind boggling.

Enjoy the back and forth, PT. You sound like an industry insider.
 

bradgator2

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That, too. I usually recommend clients with considerable assets consider buying an umbrella policy for catastrophic risks. They're dirt cheap. But the extra coverage at the same time makes you an even bigger suit target.

Don't ya just love lawyers?

I was going to start a thread on umbrella policies, but I figured I started enough on day 1 :lol:

Do you mind starting one? I’ve often wondered about these.
 

Albert

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Don't ya just love lawyers?

Don’t get me started! I’m in Louisiana, and we have one of if not the highest civil jury thresholds in the U.S., and 50% of the state legislature consists of former injury attorneys...
 

gatorev12

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It depends on what your needs are, really. The classic rule is "10x your income"--but if you have low levels of debt and lots of investment, then you can safely get away with less.

For most people: term is probably sufficient. I would never recommend whole life unless you're 1) using it as a burial policy or 2) are super-wealthy (making north of $250K annually) and using it as a ROTH substitute.

Older ULs (from the 80s and early 90s) have proven to be a loser; but some of the more modern substitutes offer good flexibility and at a better price point than whole life.
 

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