Rules Clarification on 4th down fumbles re: Arkansas last night and UF-LSU '10

[grengadgy]

These type plays are ridiculous and shouldn't be a part of the game. Any fumble on any down should be ruled down at the spot of recovery or at the spot where the fumble occurred (in the case of a forward fumble).

Are you saying that it was a 20 yard fumble?

 

[Zambo]

Are you saying that it was a 20 yard fumble?

Under the current rules, no. He was obviously trying to throw the ball to a teammate. I guess I should clarify that any time the ball hits the ground it should be either an incomplete forward pass, or a fumble. Just blindly chunking the ball around in desperation isn't really a football play IMO and shouldn't be ruled as such. I think what they did was legal but I think the rule should be tweaked.

 

[Concrete Helmet]

The more I look at it the more I think this might have been a designed play setting up. The fact that the receiver threw it in the direction of Collins who was with 2 linemen makes it realistic for those that are calling it a "fumble".

 

[rogdochar]

I'm for it … and to add excitement, players ought to be able to do "headers" on the ball, like soccer. Oh that's always
been legal... My bad.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

The more I look at it the more I think this might have been a designed play setting up. The fact that the receiver threw it in the direction of Collins who was with 2 linemen makes it realistic for those that are calling it a "fumble".

So you're saying they designed a play where they throw the ball 20 yards downfield, and then immediately blindly throw the ball back behind the line of scrimmage in hopes that no defender would catch it or pick it up, and that somehow a teammate would pick it up and run forward 30 yards? That's what you're going with?

 

[MJMGator]

So you're saying they designed a play where they throw the ball 20 yards downfield, and then immediately blindly throw the ball back behind the line of scrimmage in hopes that no defender would catch it or pick it up, and that somehow a teammate would pick it up and run forward 30 yards? That's what you're going with?

Well, it's Brett so he's gotta come up with something that makes him look good...besides his wife.

 

[rogdochar]

So you're saying they designed a play where they throw the ball 20 yards downfield, and then immediately blindly throw the ball back behind the line of scrimmage in hopes that no defender would catch it or pick it up, and that somehow a teammate would pick it up and run forward 30 yards? That's what you're going with?

Well Collins did seem to be positioning himself right in the middle open space. ?? Perhaps a defender's hand slapped
the ball out of that receiver's hand ?? Anyway, what do you call a backward Hail Mary ?

 

[gatorfan81]

The player in question was being tackled and twisted while throwing the ball and yet still managed to throw it to 3 players that were on his team.....The LSU play was a forward pass that hit the ground and should have been ruled an incompletion IMO.

This is why we are mad cause in the replay it clearly showed the ball going forward even though it was thrown over his head.
.

 

[Concrete Helmet]

So you're saying they designed a play where they throw the ball 20 yards downfield, and then immediately blindly throw the ball back behind the line of scrimmage in hopes that no defender would catch it or pick it up, and that somehow a teammate would pick it up and run forward 30 yards? That's what you're going with?

Ever heard of a hook and lateral play? The spacing was probably thrown off because the receiver who caught the ball wasn't the originally intended recipient ....yet he still had the trialing part of the play memorized. How else would he have thrown it to where his teammates were/ would be???

 

[Concrete Helmet]

This is why we are mad cause in the replay it clearly showed the ball going forward even though it was thrown over his head.
.

Yup replay clearly showed it landing a foot or more beyond where it was released...One of the worst botched called in recent history.

 

[Zambo]

Ever heard of a hook and lateral play? The spacing was probably thrown off because the receiver who caught the ball wasn't the originally intended recipient ....yet he still had the trialing part of the play memorized. How else would he have thrown it to where his teammates were/ would be???

Dude, he was downfield. Since blockers can't cross the LOS on a pass, of course most of his teammates were behind him. It doesn't take some sort of clairvoyant genius to realize where the rest of your teammates are likely to be on a play like that. He was about to be tackled and the game would be over. Simply hurling the ball backward is a better option than going down and losing the game. You have to have on some pretty thick pig glasses to think that anyone on the planet believed there was going to be a lateral on that play before it actually happened.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

Ever heard of a hook and lateral play? The spacing was probably thrown off because the receiver who caught the ball wasn't the originally intended recipient ....yet he still had the trialing part of the play memorized. How else would he have thrown it to where his teammates were/ would be???

Usually the hook and lateral play involves an actual person downfield to catch the lateral. Collins was in pass protection and behind the offensive line. Twenty f*cking yards away. You continue to astound.

 

[Concrete Helmet]

Dude, he was downfield. Since blockers can't cross the LOS on a pass, of course most of his teammates were behind him. It doesn't take some sort of clairvoyant genius to realize where the rest of your teammates are likely to be on a play like that. He was about to be tackled and the game would be over. Simply hurling the ball backward is a better option than going down and losing the game. You have to have on some pretty thick pig glasses to think that anyone on the planet believed there was going to be a lateral on that play before it actually happened.

Shhhhh......The intended receiver was supposed to run a crossing pattern and fell. Ole Miss players could be heard yelling "watch the lateral"....

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

Well the lateral hit the ground, so.....

A lateral that hits the ground is not a fumble. A fumble is defined as any act other than passing, kicking, punting or successful handing that results in loss of player possession. A lateral, technically called a backward pass, occurs when the ball carrier thows the football to a teammate in a direction parallel to or away from an opponent's goal line. A lateral is still a live ball even if it hits the ground. It's been this way forever. What happened in the Arkansas game last night isn't comparable to LSU 2010. In last night's Arky game, after a legal lateral had occurred and after the Arky running back that picked up the lateral had secured the first down, the Arky ball carrier lost control of the ball (fumbled it) and another Arky player recovered it at the point of the fumble. As the first down had already been secured, it was Arkansas ball, 1st and 10 at that spot.

The controvery with LSU was whether the ball was thrown in a lateral/backward direction (in which case it is a live ball able to be advanced) or was it thrown in a forward direction, in which case it would have been considered a forward incomplete pass and a dead ball the moment it hit the ground.

I didn't realize that this was still confusing to some.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

You continually break your own record for densest poster. I'm talking about the kid wildly throwing the ball back 25 yards after the initial catch. The rule is to protect from players indiscriminately throwing the ball backward (which I think this kid did, but the refs said it was a backward pass). Please just read the link I provided, I implore you. Everything is explained in there, yet you keep coming back and asking stupid questions.

There is no rule that prevents a player from "indiscriminately" throwing a ball backward in the field of play. That is a lateral, techinically called a backward pass, and there is no limit on the number of times a ball may be lateraled by a player legally carrying a ball during the play. What the Arkansas player who lateraled the ball last night did was perfectly legal. Here is link for you that explains what a lateral/backward pass is and a second link that explains what a fumble is. Concrete Helmet is correct in his analysis of the Arky situation last night and the LSU 2010 situation. It's news to me, and apparently Concrete, that so many people have trouble understanding the difference between a fumble and a backward pass. Lateral/backward passes like this have been occurring ever since I can remember watching football in the mid 70s. This is nothing new.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_pass

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumble

 

[Zambo]

There is no rule that prevents a player from "indiscriminately" throwing a ball backward in the field of play. That is a lateral, techinically called a backward pass, and there is no limit on the number of times a ball may be lateraled by a player legally carrying a ball during the play. What the Arkansas player who lateraled the ball last night did was perfectly legal. Here is link for you that explains what a lateral/backward pass is and a second link that explains what a fumble is. Concrete Helmet is correct in his analysis of the Arky situation last night and the LSU 2010 situation. It's news to me, and apparently Concrete, that so many people have trouble understanding the difference between a fumble and a backward pass. Lateral/bac

OMG please have a little reading comprehension. Everybody knows what a lateral is. Everybody knows what a fumble is. The question isn't "what is the difference between a lateral and a fumble." The question is what is the difference between a lateral that hits the ground and a fumble.

As an example, suppose the QB pitches the ball on an option play and the running back fails to catch it and it hits the ground and is recovered by the other team. Was it a lateral? Yes it was. Was it a fumble? Yes it was, at least as I understand it. The box score would show a fumble recovery for team B would it not?

Oh wait! Here is the text from the very link you posted:
A ball that is passed exactly sideways is considered a backwards pass. If it hits the ground, the person throwing or "pitching" the lateral pass will be subjected to the fumble designation in the statistics in the NFL, even if the ball is dropped or muffed by a teammate, although in college football this can be credited to whichever player the statistician feels is most responsible.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] If the ball hits the ground after travelling even slightly forward, however, it is then incomplete instead of a fumble.

So again I ask you, what is the difference between a lateral that hits the ground and a fumble? I don't think there is one.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

OMG please have a little reading comprehension. Everybody knows what a lateral is. Everybody knows what a fumble is.

Really, that's odd. The OP stated that nobody on this board, including himself, knew the rule and the tweets from one of the "experts" noted in the link the OP attached didn't know the difference either. Fortunately, a few of us do know something about the rules, though.

The question isn't "what is the difference between a lateral and a fumble." The question is what is the difference between a lateral that hits the ground and a fumble.

Genius, if YOU were able to comprehend a little bit then you wouldn't need me to explain this again. A lateral that hits the ground is still a lateral...and therefore all play from that point forward is subject to the rules as if the ball was lateraled, i.e.- any rules dealing with how a fumble should be treated DO NOT APPLY...BECAUSE THE BALL WAS CONSIDERED TO HAVE BEEN LATERALED!!! GET IT NOW???

As an example, suppose the QB pitches the ball on an option play and the running back fails to catch it and it hits the ground and is recovered by the other team. Was it a lateral? Yes it was. Was it a fumble? Yes it was, at least as I understand it. The box score would show a fumble recovery for team B would it not?

If the quarterback pitches the ball to the running back and the running back drops it, IT'S STILL A LATERAL BECAUSE THE QB WILLFULLY AND VOLUNTARILY PITCHED THE BALL! WHAT PART OF THAT IS SO HARD FOR YOU TO GRASP??? The debate isn't how the box score should or shouldn't look, the issue is how should the refs treat the remainder of the play from the point when the ball was lateraled vs. being fumbled. There are different rules that apply ONCE THE DETERMINATION HAS BEEN MADE AS TO WHETHER IT'S A FUMBLE OR A LATERAL.

Oh wait! Here is the text from the very link you posted:
A ball that is passed exactly sideways is considered a backwards pass. If it hits the ground, the person throwing or "pitching" the lateral pass will be subjected to the fumble designation in the statistics in the NFL, even if the ball is dropped or muffed by a teammate, although in college football this can be credited to whichever player the statistician feels is most responsible.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] If the ball hits the ground after travelling even slightly forward, however, it is then incomplete instead of a fumble.

See my explanations above!

So again I ask you, what is the difference between a lateral that hits the ground and a fumble?

As I've already pointed out (and unfortuately you're too dense to understand) the easiet way to determine the difference between a lateral (whether it hits the ground or not) and a fumble is the intent of the ballcarrier. If the ballcarrier VOLUNTARILY releases control of the ball in a lateral or backward manner in the act of passing or pitching the ball to another player on the field, then it's a lateral, REGARDLESS of whether the ball hits the ground. A fumble occurs by the involuntary action of losing control of the ball by dropping it during an exchange, dropping it when getting hit by another player, etc. Do you understand that concept? I take it that you don't watch much football...this is a pretty easy concept to pick up on after seeing a couple of games on TV.

I don't think there is one.

Well, you're wrong...and an idiot to boot!

 

[Ancient Reptile]

1) Neither the Arkansas receiver or the LSU holder looked where they were throwing the ball; 2) I thought the main LSU argument was over whether the ball was thrown forward or backward. There is no argument over Les being the luckiest coach ever. .

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

1) Neither the Arkansas receiver or the LSU holder looked where they were throwing the ball;

It doesn't matter whether they looked or not. It has no bearing on whether it's a lateral, if it's legal, etc.

2) I thought the main LSU argument was over whether the ball was thrown forward or backward.

I know that. I actually pointed that out earlier in this thread.

 

[deuce]

Ref swallowed his whistle. Should have been blown dead.