Reverse Engineering Coaching Hires

[revgator]

I was reading this article about https://sports.yahoo.com/winners-lo...-best-remaining-unbeaten-teams-043623884.html and they discussed Alabama, Penn State, UGA, Miami, USF, and UCF. It got me thinking about reverse engineering coaching hires. We usually look for an up and comer and cant really know how they will pan out in the SEC. In this article we have coaches that have gone from the SEC to other conferences and done well. I thought it might be interesting to see if there are any clues we can gather when looking for someone on the way up by comparing them to others on the way down.

Saban- ALA- we know that Saban has complete control of his program and will get upset if execution is wrong even if he is up by 50.

Franklin - Penn State: Franklin is an up and comer. He had Vandy looking real competetive
2011 Vanderbilt 6–7 2–6
2012 Vanderbilt 9–4 5–3
2013 Vanderbilt 9–4 4–4
Vanderbilt: 24–15 11–13
Penn State Nittany Lions
2014 Penn State 7–6 2–6
2015 Penn State 7–6 4–4
2016 Penn State 11–3 8–1
2017 Penn State 7–0
His record shows that he can build up a program. And this is in SEC and Big 10 (Compare his upward trend to Mac's downward trend)

Miami - Mark Richt- Is a contender, not a championship winner but a strong contender in the SEC, he will be a big kid on the playground in Miami.

USF - Charlie Strong - We know what he did at Louisville but he struggled at Texas. He will be a king at USF.

UCF- Frost- not really proven as he only is in his second season. Time will tell.

I think that Mac is on this list, if he was back at Colorado he would be enjoying success. But as some of these coaches show, the SEC requires a higher level of coaching. These are all very good coaches on this list but they struggled (not Saban) in the SEC. In the same way College coaches struggle in the NFL.

Could it be that SEC players are usually southern players? Maybe its a culture thing?
Could it be that football is king in the south and they look at football in a different way then perhaps Louisville or Penn State?
Could it be that SEC players are the best of the best and have been treated like royalty all through highschool and require a "higher level of care"?
Its obvious that there is a different skill set required. I would love to hear from StephenPE, or Sas, or Cover2 and anyone else with some experience.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I think that Mac is on this list, if he was back at Colorado he would be enjoying success.

His resume had plenty of clues. 35 year journeyman. long list of problems as OC at Bammer, no passing, terrible in redzone (even with Ingram and Richardson and incredible OL), more conservative than Les Miles, 6-9 loss vs LSU, struggling at CSU, losing to service academy and all the better WAClite teams.

He is ultraconservative, as was Nuss, and were exactly the types of OC that Chimp wanted. He isn't a taskmaster and wasn't a good recruiter, in fact wasn't even KNOWN at all despite just being at Bammer. They didn't put him on the trail much.

It was there, if you looked for it. With him it is always one step forward, six steps sideways and two steps back. His whole resume is like that.


As for the others, CS would do ok at UF, but I don't see him as a champion. Maybe with the right coordinators. He is very Zooklike, survives on recruiting FL and that didn't work at Texas. He would definitely bring home the recruits though and obviously is a step above the Muschimps and Butterteeths of the world.

 

[FireFoley]

Perhaps you are looking for a Gene Chizek type. Was not successful at Iowa State, so that was good enough to land him the Auburn job, arguably a major step up. Regardless of how he did it and how or why SCam showed up, AU won an NC. Is that your thought process to go after a failed head coach at a lesser school?

 

[FireFoley]

Perhaps you are looking for a Gene Chizek type. Was not successful at Iowa State, so that was good enough to land him the Auburn job, arguably a major step up. Regardless of how he did it and how or why SCam showed up, AU won an NC. Is that your thought process to go after a failed head coach at a lesser school?

 

[revgator]

Perhaps you are looking for a Gene Chizek type. Was not successful at Iowa State, so that was good enough to land him the Auburn job, arguably a major step up. Regardless of how he did it and how or why SCam showed up, AU won an NC. Is that your thought process to go after a failed head coach at a lesser school?

not at all. Just discussing the flipside of " he was good in the aac so he'll be good in the SEC."
There is an additional criteria we might be able to put our fingers to score a home run

Ps. Check chiziks record before auburn, he has always been a loser

 

[Swamp Donkey]

not at all. Just discussing the flipside of " he was good in the aac so he'll be good in the SEC."
There is an additional criteria we might be able to put our fingers to score a home run

Ps. Check chiziks record before auburn, he has always been a loser

They are all risky. Most fail. Former coordinators at SEC schools, champs in little leagues, they all fail at a high rate.

You have to look at the ingredients to imagine what the soup will taste like. Everyone on the list is probably a semisuccessful coordinator or HC at a lesser program.

 

[InstiGATOR1]

. It got me thinking about reverse engineering coaching hires.

I saw a long post about this on a UAL board back I think in the Dubose era. What I remember was that during that time much to the writer's and my surprise coaches with an offensive background on average did better than coaches with a defensive background.

I will say I think every job is a little different. So what is needed at UF is different than what is needed at other places.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I want an OC but if you hire an OC who cant run his own offense, then you are no better off than hiring a DC.

Decent or even average OCs get hired to be HBCs quickly. The sucky ones stay for years. Hiring an OC whoncan call his won plays is the only was to avoid constant offensive staff turnover now.

 

[OcalaGator83]

You have to look at the ingredients to imagine what the soup will taste like.

I think this is the best quote on the subject I’ve come across. Foley was awful at this piece.

 

[t-gator]

I want an OC but if you hire an OC who cant run his own offense, then you are no better off than hiring a DC.

Decent or even average OCs get hired to be HBCs quickly. The sucky ones stay for years. Hiring an OC whoncan call his won plays is the only was to avoid constant offensive staff turnover now.

 

[InstiGATOR1]

They are all risky. Most fail. Former coordinators at SEC schools, champs in little leagues, they all fail at a high rate.

You have to look at the ingredients to imagine what the soup will taste like. Everyone on the list is probably a semisuccessful coordinator or HC at a lesser program.

Exactly, there is some magic in coaching. Some guys have it and some that appear to don't. Among those that have surprised me over there years are:

1. Hallman who did well at USM, but bombed at LSU.

2. Terry Bowden who moved from Sanford to what I thought was a step to high at AU and did not lose for almost 2 years.

3. Ray Goff who I feared would continue the Dooley style at UGa, but bombed.

And you are right in that the longer you make the list, the more often the hired did not work out well.

 

[cover2]

@revgator...I first heard of James Franklin from some high school coaches who had camped at Vandy during a summer and they raved about his people skills where both the athletes and coaches were concerned. Infectious was how one of the guys described him. I would say Saban has effective people skills, but probably not with all the sugar and fizz. His comes from his record of success with both wins and developing NFL-ready players. Kind of like EF Hutton...when he talks people listen. Those skills I think are right up there in what a coach, especially nowadays, has to have in order to be successful. I think Mac has some of that, but it is more geared toward the kids. I don't believe many of the adults these days are impressed by what you hear from him in the pressers and the show with Mick. He's lost a connection with much of the adult sector IMO and I'm not sure he had much to begin with beyond an initial captive audience who wanted to see who he was and what he was about after being hired. I've used the Wizzard of Oz reference and I think the curtain has been pulled back. His shtick is pretty corny (and based on illusion) and his success being less than what is expected hurts him. Saban gets it done on the field and Franklin is showing signs to do likewise consistently.

Another big factor is the ability to hire a competent and effective staff of assistants. All the good ones know that they are no better than their coordinators and position coaches. Most have guys that are aspiring head coaches and will lose those eventually, but they always have a Plan B. I think this is a huge and obvious area that Mac has struggled with. I don't believe the better coaches out there would have assembled a staff with Nussmeier, Nord, or the kid who was Mac's first DB coach. I don't believe the better ones would keep those guys around. Loyalty is a necessary trait in a successful HC, but it can't be unconditional. There has to be expectations for excellence and when not met, here's the door.

These are just a few things that came to mind.

 

[BMF]

How many here think we're pulling in another HC from a higher level P5 school? When I say "higher level" I'm not talking about stealing a coach from Vandy, Wake Forest, Indiana, or Pitt - I'm talking about a coach at an Auburn, Va Tech, Clemson, Oregon, etc. I don't see it happening. I keep reading people suggesting Fuentes or Swinney ("You have to at least give them a call and see if they're interested"). This board isn't quite as delusional as some Gator message boards (cough, cough Swamp Gas, cough, cough). But there are people here that - for some reason - still think that UF is the Mecca of the college football world. I got news for you; it ain't!

Regardless of how much Law wants to piss and moan, the fact is we are going to have to take a risk. Sure, McElwain and Muschamp were risks as well....but I think most of us were all, "Huh? WTF?" when those guys got hired. Personally, I wasn't as much "WTF?" w/ McElwain as I was about Muschamp. But I still thought it was another Saban-tree coach where we had just fired a Saban-tree coach and it didn't make sense to me.

I'm not advocating for PJ Fleck, but I love his 'style' as a coach. He has the Meyer approach more so than the Saban approach - as far as the details of how he runs the program (if you watched any of the PJ Fleck Show it was very impressive w/ how detailed he is and his approach to the game). I want someone like him. (Law will say he's a Jim Tressel type, but I disagree. And, btw, Jim Tressel was a pretty damn good coach in his own right).

Anyhow, I think there are people here (at gatorchatter) who are delusional on who we will be able to hire. I would be prepared to see us take a mid-level coach (at a G5 school or a lower-level P5 school). I think the hire will be very offensive minded and younger. If we are able to get a Fuentes type I would be giddy, but I'm a realist and I'm not expecting a Fuentes type to make a lateral move (no matter how you view UF vs. Va Tech or Clemson or Auburn or Penn State or whatever P5 "football" school).

@revgator...I first heard of James Franklin from some high school coaches who had camped at Vandy during a summer and they raved about his people skills where both the athletes and coaches were concerned. Infectious was how one of the guys described him. I would say Saban has effective people skills, but probably not with all the sugar and fizz. His comes from his record of success with both wins and developing NFL-ready players. Kind of like EF Hutton...when he talks people listen. Those skills I think are right up there in what a coach, especially nowadays, has to have in order to be successful. I think Mac has some of that, but it is more geared toward the kids. I don't believe many of the adults these days are impressed by what you hear from him in the pressers and the show with Mick. He's lost a connection with much of the adult sector IMO and I'm not sure he had much to begin with beyond an initial captive audience who wanted to see who he was and what he was about after being hired. I've used the Wizzard of Oz reference and I think the curtain has been pulled back. His shtick is pretty corny (and based on illusion) and his success being less than what is expected hurts him. Saban gets it done on the field and Franklin is showing signs to do likewise consistently.

Another big factor is the ability to hire a competent and effective staff of assistants. All the good ones know that they are no better than their coordinators and position coaches. Most have guys that are aspiring head coaches and will lose those eventually, but they always have a Plan B. I think this is a huge and obvious area that Mac has struggled with. I don't believe the better coaches out there would have assembled a staff with Nussmeier, Nord, or the kid who was Mac's first DB coach. I don't believe the better ones would keep those guys around. Loyalty is a necessary trait in a successful HC, but it can't be unconditional. There has to be expectations for excellence and when not met, here's the door.

These are just a few things that came to mind.

C2, I'm surprised that that was the first you heard of Franklin. He was the "coach in waiting" at Maryland before he got the Vandy job (Maryland hung on to Ralph Friedgen too long). He was a huge, huge rising star.....and after his success at Vandy it should have been obvious to most AD's that he was going to be successful no matter where he landed.

 

[Jbossgator8]

UCF and USF SHOULD be winning big EVERY year in the conference they are in. SOS is 86 for UCF and 123 for USF. Regardless, both coaches are stars without a doubt. Both schools should be in a Power 5 conference very soon. Most likely the Big 12.

 

[cover2]

How many here think we're pulling in another HC from a higher level P5 school? When I say "higher level" I'm not talking about stealing a coach from Vandy, Wake Forest, Indiana, or Pitt - I'm talking about a coach at an Auburn, Va Tech, Clemson, Oregon, etc. I don't see it happening. I keep reading people suggesting Fuentes or Swinney ("You have to at least give them a call and see if they're interested"). This board isn't quite as delusional as some Gator message boards (cough, cough Swamp Gas, cough, cough). But there are people here that - for some reason - still think that UF is the Mecca of the college football world. I got news for you; it ain't!

Regardless of how much Law wants to piss and moan, the fact is we are going to have to take a risk. Sure, McElwain and Muschamp were risks as well....but I think most of us were all, "Huh? WTF?" when those guys got hired. Personally, I wasn't as much "WTF?" w/ McElwain as I was about Muschamp. But I still thought it was another Saban-tree coach where we had just fired a Saban-tree coach and it didn't make sense to me.

I'm not advocating for PJ Fleck, but I love his 'style' as a coach. He has the Meyer approach more so than the Saban approach - as far as the details of how he runs the program (if you watched any of the PJ Fleck Show it was very impressive w/ how detailed he is and his approach to the game). I want someone like him. (Law will say he's a Jim Tressel type, but I disagree. And, btw, Jim Tressel was a pretty damn good coach in his own right).

Anyhow, I think there are people here (at gatorchatter) who are delusional on who we will be able to hire. I would be prepared to see us take a mid-level coach (at a G5 school or a lower-level P5 school). I think the hire will be very offensive minded and younger. If we are able to get a Fuentes type I would be giddy, but I'm a realist and I'm not expecting a Fuentes type to make a lateral move (no matter how you view UF vs. Va Tech or Clemson or Auburn or Penn State or whatever P5 "football" school).



C2, I'm surprised that that was the first you heard of Franklin. He was the "coach in waiting" at Maryland before he got the Vandy job (Maryland hung on to Ralph Friedgen too long). He was a huge, huge rising star.....and after his success at Vandy it should have been obvious to most AD's that he was going to be successful no matter where he landed.

I didn't pay much attention to much ACC goings on in those days, as they seemed to mostly be an F$U warm-up group. But I agree with what you and many others know about him and his future once he got to Vandy. He's certainly showing his mettle at Penn State.

I agree with your assessment about future hiring. I don't see us hiring someone away from an established P5 program or from the NFL. The idea that you can just throw a wad of money and get anybody you want is archaic and just doesn't work anymore. I believe we'll have to find the best of the up-and-comers, but to do so, it will take some really good research that has to include what kind of staff can be assembled. This is an area that I think Mac has certainly had some problems with here at UF. I suspect that whoever the next guy is, he likely will have spent at least three years where he's at and will be ready to "move up" ;) to the position here at UF. I can only hope that Striklin will be better at the future football hire than Foley was. I jest and mine is a bit of a layman's perspective, but it feels like Mac came in and did a few card tricks and sawed a woman in half and JF threw the contract on the stage.

 

[BMF]

I didn't pay much attention to much ACC goings on in those days, as they seemed to mostly be an F$U warm-up group. But I agree with what you and many others know about him and his future once he got to Vandy. He's certainly showing his mettle at Penn State.

I agree with your assessment about future hiring. I don't see us hiring someone away from an established P5 program or from the NFL. The idea that you can just throw a wad of money and get anybody you want is archaic and just doesn't work anymore. I believe we'll have to find the best of the up-and-comers, but to do so, it will take some really good research that has to include what kind of staff can be assembled. This is an area that I think Mac has certainly had some problems with here at UF. I suspect that whoever the next guy is, he likely will have spent at least three years where he's at and will be ready to "move up" ;) to the position here at UF. I can only hope that Striklin will be better at the future football hire than Foley was. I jest and mine is a bit of a layman's perspective, but it feels like Mac came in and did a few card tricks and sawed a woman in half and JF threw the contract on the stage.

We are in full agreement on the prospects of the next hire. And I think you are spot on w/ the assistants.

Honestly, if you look at both Muschamp and McElwain, if they both had hired a 21st Century OC to come in w/ them I think they would have both had - a little more - success. I'm not saying we'd be NC contenders, but honestly, if Muschamp had hired a younger up-and-coming OC type he'd probably still be the coach (and we'd be in a Mark Richt/UGA-years type of situation; contending for the SEC East and not able to get over the hump). We would all be b*tching about it, but he'd be winning just enough to keep his job. Same for McElwain w/ the hiring of Nussmeir. Had he brought in someone who could run a 21st Century college offense we'd probably be a 10-2 type team, not getting blown out as often, and would get beaten by Alabama by 10-14 points vs. the sh*t show we saw last year.

Yes, let's hope Stricklin does a better job hiring the next football coach....and let's hope he has the balls to do it this year!!!

 

[ThreatMatrix]

What do Steve Spurrier, Urban Meyer and James Franklin have in common? They took teams to the highest levels they could hope for given their conference and/or resources. That's the first thing I'm looking for.
That's the first cut. Somebody who has proven that they can win. Sure preferably it would be a "lateral" school. If not that then somebody at one rung down.

 

[BMF]

What do Steve Spurrier, Urban Meyer and James Franklin have in common? They took teams to the highest levels they could hope for given their conference and/or resources. That's the first thing I'm looking for.
That's the first cut. Somebody who has proven that they can win. Sure preferably it would be a "lateral" school. If not that then somebody at one rung down.

Name names!

 

[ThreatMatrix]

Name names!

It's a search. First decide on the job requirements. Then you look for candidates. Put feelers out.
Franklin has turned around two programs.
Gundy wins about as much as can be done at Ok State
Fuente maybe. Did some good things at Memphis. Now Va Tech.

I'm sure there's others but those 3 are proven.

Whether or not they'd jump or we'd pay for them is a different story.

 

[ChiefGator]

For an example that we know best, look at Urban. Sure he was an intense guy, he had a system both on the field and off. But look at all those successful assistants that he had, and of course luck with several very superior players and leaders.

Currently we have none of that.

We don't have a staff like he has and apparently the team has few leaders as well. Imagine what might have happened if say Tim was on our team and those unethical folks came to his attention. Leadership from the players counts a lot, especially when the coaches leadership is suspect as is ours.