Question about coaching hires...

[cover2]

I was thinking today, after watching Mac and the Gators limp into the post season and Coach White and "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight" get off to what many would call a shakey start and the predictable questioning of their hires, why do we get the guys that we do? I know that the popular theory is that Foley goes cheap and would rather try and hire the next big thing as opposed to going deep and getting a big name. But is that all there is to it? Are facilities, which I know are being updated, an issue? Are our standards for student/athletes to get in too high compared to our rivals? Is GPD too tight compared to law enforcement in other college cities?

This may have been previously discussed, but I don't remember. I don't know a lot about college AD doings, but it seems to me that we probably aren't made aware of some of the offers that may be made and turned down, maybe for PR purposes. Don't know for sure, just speculating. Track record says Foley has been better at hires for every other sport than football (jury is out on Mac for a while). Will a new AD be able to bring in the big names? Personally I have to think that there is something more at play here than simply Foley being cheap, but I can't put my finger on it. I also know that every time a coach is needed, a bulk of the fan base yells for the biggest name regardless of whether there is a realistic chance of ever getting them. Expectations...realistic or not?

Interested to see what anyone knows as well as what we think.

 

[L-boy]

I don't know how much of it is "cheap", but Foley does seem to go more for the "up and comers". He hit it big with Donovan, and most of his hires seem to be somewhat in that mold. Also, he doesn't seem to be big on long protracted searches. Perhaps with the 2002 Stoops drama (would he come or wouldn't he?) he grew wary of shooting for the fences and getting left at the alter. You can certainly get big names to listen, but the odds of landing them are very low. They listen to bolster their contract negotiations. I can't think of many instances where college football coaches have left a major successful program to go to another successful major program.

I guess the question I ask - who do all the detractors think has a model that works? Ok, sure Saban turned out well. But what other school out there - especially in the SEC has done such a great job at hiring coaches that we would considered canning Foley?

As to Foley being cheap, my recollection was Spurrier, while at FL, was at one time the highest paid coach in ALL of football, college and pro.

 

[t-gator]

I think alot of guys expect more than what we're willing to pay and Foley is a believer in having the coach earn it. That's not a knock on Foley, that's just my opinion. He wasn't going 4-5 mil on a football coach that hasn't won anything. You don't always get what you pay for. Look at cam Cameron and will muschamp. Possibly the worst 2 coordinators in the conference this year and yet they're 2 of the highest paid in the country. Look at texas anm's big stadium renovations. They're 75 mil over budget, they don't how they're gonna cover it and yet they're still a trainwreck on the field. Spending just to spend is dumb.

 

[cover2]

I can't think of many instances where college football coaches have left a major successful program to go to another successful major program.

Unfortunately, Urban Meyer comes to mind! Unless you don't consider OSU successful at that time. Don't know, but I always felt that despite the questionable medical and family circumstances of his departure, it raised some questions about the job for some future prospects.

 

[L-boy]

More to the "cheap" theory

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2001-08-03-coaches-cover.htm

In 2001 Spurrier was highest paid college FB coach, and Billy Donovan was #4 BB coach

Spurrier became highest paid college FB coach in 1996.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/1996/10/17/met_200024.shtml#.VpHJ8VKYIrh

He went from about $1 million per year in 1996 to $2.1 million in 2001.

 

[AugustaGator]

Who on here is going to cut the check?

 

[L-boy]

Unfortunately, Urban Meyer comes to mind! Unless you don't consider OSU successful at that time. Don't know, but I always felt that despite the questionable medical and family circumstances of his departure, it raised some questions about the job for some future prospects.

That was a unusual set of circumstances. When he went to Ohio State, he wasn't coaching. And we all knew Ohio State was his dream job. He grew up in Ohio. I think in his first UF contract, he had an "out" where if the Ohio State, Michigan or Notre Dame job came open he could pursue it if he so chose. I recall that, but I won't swear to that, it was a long time ago.

As to your second point, could be. Spurrier left UF in a bit of a tiss. Then you had Zook fiasco. Then Meyer leaves basically due to stress. If you are already successful somewhere else, you may think twice about jumping into the UF pressure cooker. But honestly, I think that is true with most of the top programs.

 

[Fishon]

That was a unusual set of circumstances. When he went to Ohio State, he wasn't coaching. And we all knew Ohio State was his dream job. He grew up in Ohio. I think in his first UF contract, he had an "out" where if the Ohio State, Michigan or Notre Dame job came open he could pursue it if he so chose. I recall that, but I won't swear to that, it was a long time ago.

As to your second point, could be. Spurrier left UF in a bit of a tiss. Then you had Zook fiasco. Then Meyer leaves basically due to stress. If you are already successful somewhere else, you may think twice about jumping into the UF pressure cooker. But honestly, I think that is true with most of the top programs.

Maybe...just maybe, the pressure cooker of UF has less to do with Foley than it does with the fan base already gnashing its teeth over a 10 win season, that by all rights should have been 6-7 wins.

 

[L-boy]

Maybe...just maybe, the pressure cooker of UF has less to do with Foley than it does with the fan base already gnashing its teeth over a 10 win season, that by all rights should have been 6-7 wins.

This is true. UF has a spoiled fan base. Is it worse than other major football programs? Not sure about that.

 

[L-boy]

Instead of looking at what Foley has done wrong, or not done well enough, let's discuss what he has done right.

1. True, he didn't hire Spurrier, but he kept him around a decade. From early on Spurrier had talked about the NFL as a possibility. We made Spurrier the highest paid college FB coach from 1996 until he left.

2. Billy Donovan hire - one of the best coaching hires in college sports over last couple of decades. Made UF, not even really a contender in Basketball, one of the top programs in the nation. 2 national titles, and 4 final 4's, and a whole bunch more.

3. Urban Meyer - the conventional wisdom among the naysayers is that Machin was responsible for that, even though people close to the program deny that. Sure, Meyer was the most obvious candidate and sought after candidate out there, yet we ended up with him. Notre Dame also needed a new coach, and ND was one of Meyer's "dream" jobs, yet he ended up here. My recollection was Foley didn't dick around, he got the deal done, while ND stumbled and waited until the end of the season to fire their coach and were always a step behind. Meyere wasn't without risk, there was a lot of conversation about whether his spread option would work in the SEC. And Spurrier threw his hat in the ring too. As much as I love Spurrier, Meyer was probably the better hire at the time.

Sum it all up, you have 3 football national championships during his tenure, a whole bunch of SEC championships, 2 basketball national championships and 4 final 4's, and a whole bunch of all sports trophies. But we have a bunch of fans who want to fire the guy who played a major part in all that.

 

[alcoholica]

We pretty much started the fire(insert name).com

So prospective coaches know they'll have unrealistic expectations. Add the conditions of facilities and low pay. Some other things Cover said just add in. Also, think of the recruiting grounds. You are competing with every major program for your players. Look at LSU and their recruiting advantage there. We don't have that.

So Mac requires upgrades, but why beyond that? Ego/legacy is my best bet. Potentially big money in the future. If Mac wins 1 NC, he'll be more beloved than Meyer.

 

[t-gator]

Will muschamp opened up the flood gates as far as everyone coming in here and stealing our recruits. Foley had alot to do with hiring and keeping him too long.

 

[Okeechobee Joe]

There are only a handful of schools that have the potential to win a national championship more than once in a decade. Though we are down now, we have done that. It is a very rare thing. When Urban Meyer tanked, and had to take a leave of absence, there wasn't anybody in college football who had a bigger name unless it was Nick Saban. So no matter who we picked to follow Meyer, he wasn't going to have as big as name as Urban did.

Whenever one of the SEC schools are out to hire a coach, they all think they are going to wave some money and Jon Gruden or some other savior is going to come on down. It's like when people put their house up for sale. Everybody always thinks their piece of property is going to sell for more than it eventually does.

A successful AD has to be able to pick out an up and coming guy, like a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer and take a chance on him. Those two were not big names when they came to Gainesville. They were up-and-comers who eventually became the next big names. Really good programs like Florida, which have the potential to go all the way to the top, have away better chance of attracting the next big name than almost all other schools do. The already established big names are already too entrenched in their current jobs or are getting too up in years to just pull up stakes to start over again. I remember when Mack Brown left Texas, the Longhorns thought they were going to get Nick Saban to move to Austin. They can think again.

If you look back over the entire body of work Jeremy Foley has done with the football program, he has done more than just pretty good. Remember, after Bear Bryant retired and Alabama landed Nick Saban, they went through Ray Perkins, Bill Curry, Gene Stallings, Mike Dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price, Mike Shula, and Joe Kines. Getting a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer every decade or so is really an outstanding job by an athletic director.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

I guess the question I ask - who do all the detractors think has a model that works? Ok, sure Saban turned out well. But what other school out there - especially in the SEC has done such a great job at hiring coaches that we would considered canning Foley?

As to Foley being cheap, my recollection was Spurrier, while at FL, was at one time the highest paid coach in ALL of football, college and pro.

Spurrier being the highest paid college football coach was 15 years ago. Times change yet it seems the salary we pay our football coaches is circa 2008 despite it being 2016.

As far as other SEC schools and their model, how many of the quality SEC programs have had turnover in their HC ranks over the past few years prior to Richt being fired at the end of this season? Saban, Miles, Richt and Spurrier had been at their schools since 2007 or prior. We have had 3 different HC's since 2007 so your question is somewhat moot. Auburn has had some turnover but, heck, even the Missy's, traditionally irrelevant, have become respectable of late due to some decent hires.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Our athletic department is stuck in 1994.

We aren't going to get into an arms race and it shows.

 

[L-boy]

Spurrier being the highest paid college football coach was 15 years ago. Times change yet it seems the salary we pay our football coaches is circa 2008 despite it being 2016.

As far as other SEC schools and their model, how many of the quality SEC programs have had turnover in their HC ranks over the past few years prior to Richt being fired at the end of this season? Saban, Miles, Richt and Spurrier had been at their schools since 2007 or prior. We have had 3 different HC's since 2007 so your question is somewhat moot. Auburn has had some turnover but, heck, even the Missy's, traditionally irrelevant, have become respectable of late due to some decent hires.

Yes, everybody likes Saban and that was a great hire.

Les Miles? Hell, every few years they talk about firing him. I recall years ago in a loss to Ole Miss fans briefly changed his wiki page to state he was the only known Div 1 college football coach to have a known mental disability. He had one national title (only team I can recall to win natl title with two losses), to Meyer's two. I think that year LSU barely beat UF, and did so with a fake FG and a whole bunch of 4th down conversions. This year they almost fired him again.

Mark Richt. Are you serious?

Steve Spurrier - so are you saying we should have gotten Meyer instead of Spurrier.

Arguing for stability is different than success. So I guess you would rather have the stability of Mark Richt than our turnover and national titles. And you can't blame Foley for Meyer leaving, Foley did everything he could to keep him here.

 

[L-boy]

There are only a handful of schools that have the potential to win a national championship more than once in a decade. Though we are down now, we have done that. It is a very rare thing. When Urban Meyer tanked, and had to take a leave of absence, there wasn't anybody in college football who had a bigger name unless it was Nick Saban. So no matter who we picked to follow Meyer, he wasn't going to have as big as name as Urban did.

Whenever one of the SEC schools are out to hire a coach, they all think they are going to wave some money and Jon Gruden or some other savior is going to come on down. It's like when people put their house up for sale. Everybody always thinks their piece of property is going to sell for more than it eventually does.

A successful AD has to be able to pick out an up and coming guy, like a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer and take a chance on him. Those two were not big names when they came to Gainesville. They were up-and-comers who eventually became the next big names. Really good programs like Florida, which have the potential to go all the way to the top, have away better chance of attracting the next big name than almost all other schools do. The already established big names are already too entrenched in their current jobs or are getting too up in years to just pull up stakes to start over again. I remember when Mack Brown left Texas, the Longhorns thought they were going to get Nick Saban to move to Austin. They can think again.

If you look back over the entire body of work Jeremy Foley has done with the football program, he has done more than just pretty good. Remember, after Bear Bryant retired and Alabama landed Nick Saban, they went through Ray Perkins, Bill Curry, Gene Stallings, Mike Dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price, Mike Shula, and Joe Kines. Getting a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer every decade or so is really an outstanding job by an athletic director.

Good point on Bama. People seem to think it is an automatic. Look what Bama went through. Look what Notre Dame went through. Look at Tennessee. Miami. Look at Texas. Auburn has been all over the place. They have success, but then they tank and fire their coach. Everybody loved Malzahn, but this year Auburn looked pretty middling (Thanks Muschamp!). Look what Michigan went through - until they got lucky and found their version of Steve Spurrier.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

Yes, everybody likes Saban and that was a great hire.

Les Miles? Hell, every few years they talk about firing him. I recall years ago in a loss to Ole Miss fans briefly changed his wiki page to state he was the only known Div 1 college football coach to have a known mental disability. He had one national title (only team I can recall to win natl title with two losses), to Meyer's two. I think that year LSU barely beat UF, and did so with a fake FG and a whole bunch of 4th down conversions. This year they almost fired him again.

Mark Richt. Are you serious?

Steve Spurrier - so are you saying we should have gotten Meyer instead of Spurrier.

Arguing for stability is different than success. So I guess you would rather have the stability of Mark Richt than our turnover and national titles. And you can't blame Foley for Meyer leaving, Foley did everything he could to keep him here.

Let me rephrase for you...there really isn't another SEC team we can compare our situation to as the upper tier scools haven't had turnover like we have and haven't had to hire new coaches. Therefore, you really can't compare their situations to ours. With the turnover we have had, we have had the opportunity to open the vault to fill a need (i.e.-hire a new coaching staff) and we haven't spent much money, relatively speaking, to get a brand name, proven coach.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Look what Notre Dame went through.

Notre Dame is a pretty good comparison. They decided in the 80s they weren't going to pay "the going rate" and assumed they would attract top coaches on name alone. That hasn't worked out so well. Then, after they dug themselves a VERY deep hole, they start throwing money at bad hires. Sound familiar?

 

[ThreatMatrix]

First, I just want to be sure that it is understood by everyone that Foley did not hire Spurrier. Just in case there is any confusion. Not to keep beating a dead horse but Foley really f'd up by:
1) Letting Meyer hang around for a year when he, Foley, should have known better.
2) After having a year to look landing an unproven DC
3) Backing up the brinks truck to 'chumps house and giving him guaranteed millions that we are still paying today
4) Keeping 'chump around too long which further damaged the Florida brand.

Second with regards to recruiting I too wonder about these issues:
1) "Are facilities... an issue?"
2) "Are our standards for student/athletes to get in too high compared to our rivals?"
3) "Is GPD too tight compared to law enforcement in other college cities?"

Those are three issues that the AD can have an impact on.
#1 is easy enough to fix if you're not paying ex coach $2 mil/year
#2 requires working with the administration but arrangements are not unheard of regarding grades. Also regarding drug (weed) testing which is a UF policy. If the competition ain't doing it then neither should we.
#3 a little more complicated but the relationship between GPD and UF athletics has never been symbiotic. Certainly not in the 20+ years Foley has been around. Foley could be developing relationships with the GPD that foster a friendly relationship.

And finally, just of the sake of not having to rebuild every time you have a coaching change don't hire HC with distinctly different styles. We went from pro style athletes with Spurrier/Zook to spread offense players with Meyer to no offense with 'Chump back to pro style.