Question about coaching hires...

[T REX]

I didn't say anything about homerun hire when making things up, I said you were talking about who has the better resume. T get your own arguments straight.

First off, you are responding to a post that I was making directly to TLB. So you get your **** straight...lol. In fact, he even agreed with what I said. Thanks, but no thanks on the bait.

 

[TheDouglas78]

First off, you are responding to a post that I was making directly to TLB. So you get your **** straight...lol. In fact, he even agreed with what I said. Thanks, but no thanks on the bait.

Dude you have been saying the same damn thing for a month. We get it you think Harbaugh is a better hire, then you make claims saying someone else says them.... Which you did just now again. Then blame people for pointing it out.
which was an answer to this:

Other than Alabama getting Saban when they did, who else has a proven home run hire? You can't throw Harbaugh out there anymore than I can throw Mac out there being first year coaches at those programs. Even USCe in hiring our beloved SOS proved not to be a homerun - he couldn't get it done there for a myriad of reasons. Other than the timing being right for AL having a need and Saban leaving the NFL, and AL being one of those programs that could outbid everyone that year for his services, they haven't had top level success since Bryant. I don't recall salaries, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't hired as one of the top salaries in the nation at the time. I'm also willing to bet that it was the minimum required to land his services, allowing for future success to garner raises and bonuses going forward.

TLB did say he forget about Harbaughs time at Stanford, and that he would have been a home run hire. Nothing about McElwain's resume compared to Harbaugh, which you brought up in your response. So don't blame TLB for a comment you made that people are saying that McElwain's resume (track record) is better than Harbaugh's.

Btw, your post was pretty good and made a lot sense overall. I have a problem with this statement. Harbaugh is more than proven on multiple levels at multiple stops. Two 11-1's at San Diego - 12-1 at Stanford - Two NFC title games in the NFL and he just went 10-3 at Michigan. He's been a winner everywhere he's been. He's a great coach and a HOME RUN hire for anyone that hires him. This is fact. I know it kills people to say it but he's a better coach than Mac by a wide margin. That may change and we all hope it does. By saying that, it doesn't take anything away from Mac.

What does TLB's comment have to do with their resumes, and the fact he said we don't know if either are home runs because they have only been their a year?

 

[ATXGator]

I think it is a couple of things.

1. I think it is hard to find somebody to follow the "Hall of Fame" type coaches. Following a Muschamp or Zook is a lot easier on a Football coach than following a Spurrier or Meyer. The expectations of the fanbase are much different because they are looking for somebody to rebuild from failure vs. continue a championship program. The same may go for Billy Donovan. How many guys really wanted to follow a Billy D. From our perspective we look at it that Billy gave Florida a name and great fanbase, but maybe Archie Miller thinks... Billy was one of the best ever... I don't want to live in his shoes vs. create my own legacy.

2. I don't think offers are given out, but I think there is a lot of discussion to see who is interested and who is not interested. This discussion goes between agents and administrators and it is how the Hugh Freeze or Bob Stoops things happen. It is very possible Foley went to Archie Miller (ex for basketball) and Archie said he wasn't interested for the reasons above or he came with a ridiculous price tag.

3. Cheap Foley... I keep hearing this, but it doesn't actually match with the facts. McElwain WAS NOT cheap. He is making good money and getting money spent on the program. Everybody assumes this was part of the deal... so the cheap Foley thing doesn't really vibe here. Also... Foley has to manage to a budget... you can't put coach salaries on a credit card. He has to manage a full athletic department, so I'm sure he is trying to do that as effectively as possible.

 

[playzwtrux]

Spurrier was awesome at UF, not so much at USCe.

SO, three 11 win seasons (1 East title), with another 9 win season & 5 bowl wins at a school that hasn't done anything in 30+ years is a "not so much" coaching job?
It's SC for crying out loud. - that's an awesome job, considering the school he was at.

 

[TLB]

My post was in response...

I didn't say anything about ....

Fellas, take it down a notch. I'm running off at the mouth (keyboard) and what both of you said made sense. Mis-perceiving comments from one another is more likely an effect of me saying things too fast or inserting my own words when responding to someone. Chill. Not worth getting in a twist about.

 

[T REX]

Dude you have been saying the same damn thing for a month. We get it you think Harbaugh is a better hire, then you make claims saying someone else says them.... Which you did just now again. Then blame people for pointing it out.
which was an answer to this:


TLB did say he forget about Harbaughs time at Stanford, and that he would have been a home run hire. Nothing about McElwain's resume compared to Harbaugh, which you brought up in your response. So don't blame TLB for a comment you made that people are saying that McElwain's resume (track record) is better than Harbaugh's.



What does TLB's comment have to do with their resumes, and the fact he said we don't know if either are home runs because they have only been their a year?

who else has a proven home run hire? You can't throw Harbaugh out there anymore than I can throw Mac

Sounds like a comparison to me. And just simply saying one IS A HOME RUN HIRE while the other is not...wouldn't that be comparing resumes? How else would you come to that conclusion? Forty times? GPA? Come on, if you don't like what I am saying that is fine. But don't say I'm saying something else when I am clearly not. Put me on ignore dude. I don't really care.

 

[TLB]

SO, three 11 win seasons (1 East title), with another 9 win season & 5 bowl wins at a school that hasn't done anything in 30+ years is a "not so much" coaching job?
It's SC for crying out loud. - that's an awesome job, considering the school he was at.

Yeah, Ok, I'll bite. Three 11 win seasons....out of 11 seasons, in a weak East division. That 1 East title was their ONLY appearance in the SECCG. One 8 win season and five seasons of 7 or less wins, that is with keeping 2-3 cupcakes on the schedule, mind you. Quitting on the team mid season this year...yeah, he saw that train wreck coming. Whatever the team did after he left, he earned the record for the season.

I love him as much as any of us do. And, I'll stand by your side and shake my head with the hand he was playing at USCe (weak recruiting base, limited support, limited brand name or tradition). He did a helluva lot there. But did they get the SOS era Part II? If they did, it was a shadow of what he did at UF, which I believe would have been their expectations. What were we before he came? Fertile recruiting grounds would be the only benefit we had over USCe prior to SOS's arrival. They had a reason to expect the second coming.

Considering the school he was at, he did a lot.
Considering what he'd done in the past, he didn't live up to the hype. = THAT was my point.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

3. Cheap Foley... I keep hearing this, but it doesn't actually match with the facts. McElwain WAS NOT cheap.

McElwain was less than half the price of a top notch coach. I agree it wasn't chicken scratch and he's not on foodstamps like our Assistant Coaches. Of course they buyout was big and apparently our pathetic legal department wasn't successful at arguing it is unenforceable. (Keep trying, PDS!)

Mac was half the cost of a top notch coach and so was Zook and Mushchump. Of course, when you regularly fvkk up your hires, and have to pay Zook and Chump for years after they leave, while paying the replacement at the same time, YOU END UP PAYING AS MUCH AS YOU WOULD FOR A TOP NOTCH COACH FROM THE BEGINNING. Two Kias cost as much as one BMW.

Fooley will retire/get fired before he figures this out.

We actually pay Chump and Mac more than Saban. And back in 05-07 we were paying Zook and Creyer more than any coach. And of course we payed Creyer top money once he won an NC and will have to do the same with Mac if he starts winning championships.

Its not really that Fooley is cheap, we end up paying top money ($6.5 mil) this year for third or fourth tier coaches because he likes to shop at Big Lots.

 

[TheDouglas78]

Sounds like a comparison to me. And just simply saying one IS A HOME RUN HIRE while the other is not...wouldn't that be comparing resumes? How else would you come to that conclusion? Forty times? GPA? Come on, if you don't like what I am saying that is fine. But don't say I'm saying something else when I am clearly not. Put me on ignore dude. I don't really care.

It's not I don't like what you are saying, when you are actually arguing against a point that was made, you are decent. But you continuously make up points to argue against. How does a statement saying we don't know if they are the home run similar to Saban because they are in year one mean lets compare resumes? Then you made your own argument.

Btw, your post was pretty good and made a lot sense overall. I have a problem with this statement. Harbaugh is more than proven on multiple levels at multiple stops. Two 11-1's at San Diego - 12-1 at Stanford - Two NFC title games in the NFL and he just went 10-3 at Michigan. He's been a winner everywhere he's been. He's a great coach and a HOME RUN hire for anyone that hires him. This is fact. I know it kills people to say it but he's a better coach than Mac by a wide margin. That may change and we all hope it does. By saying that, it doesn't take anything away from Mac.

This is what I responded to... which has nothing to directly due with the statement TLB made. What does this have to do with the fact they are in the first year in their program so the grade is still out?

 

[T REX]

It's not I don't like what you are saying, when you are actually arguing against a point that was made, you are decent. But you continuously make up points to argue against. How does a statement saying we don't know if they are the home run similar to Saban because they are in year one mean lets compare resumes? Then you made your own argument.



This is what I responded to... which has nothing to directly due with the statement TLB made. What does this have to do with the fact they are in the first year in their program so the grade is still out?

Fair enough...I just feel like you are trying to argue with me over nothing. I like Mac. Ten wins is way more than anyone(well most) thought. Year three is going to be the big test. We should expect to get to ATL in year three. I am really high on Harbaugh though. I think he's a damn great coach. Douche? Probably but a great coach nonetheless. It doesn't make our guy crappy.

 

[TheDouglas78]

Fair enough...I just feel like you are trying to argue with me over nothing. I like Mac. Ten wins is way more than anyone(well most) thought. Year three is going to be the big test. We should expect to get to ATL in year three. I am really high on Harbaugh though. I think he's a damn great coach. Douche? Probably but a great coach nonetheless. It doesn't make our guy crappy.

I agree, if by year 3 we aren't truly competing for a SEC Championship. Not just showing up in the game... then we have to reevaluate. But it's going to take 3 recruiting classes (including 2015's class) to start to repair the damage that was done by the previous regime.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

I agree, if by year 3 we aren't truly competing for a SEC Championship. Not just showing up in the game... then we have to reevaluate. But it's going to take 3 recruiting classes (including 2015's class) to start to repair the damage that was done by the previous regime.

It will be four years at least.

 

[t-gator]

I didn't say anything about homerun hire when making things up, I said you were talking about who has the better resume. T get your own arguments straight.

I'm not arguing with you

 

[TheDouglas78]

I'm not arguing with you

You are always arguing with me T... it's the wolfpack mentality in you.

 

[GatorInGeorgia]

You are right in that they have sustained HC tenure, which creates stability for the program and a continuity of philosophy for the kids. But staff under the HBC changes all the time, everywhere. Not just for salary reasons, more often there are performance vs expectation issues, or possibly just philophical issues, sometimes there is arrogant bastard (sorry, WM personality type) issues, and sometimes it's a chance to jump at a better option.

We've had 3 different HC's since 2007. Unarguable. LSU has discussed making the change, despite getting a NC. How many have TN gone thru in that time frame since they got rid of the fat pumpkin? It hasn't led to success, unless we're counting moral victories. How many schools have stuck with coaches but aren't bringing the team to the top level (excepting a few years given a star player like USCe with Clowney and aTm with Manziel)? It's a decision ADs have to make - do I stick with the guy and give him more time to work it out, or do we hit the reset and try again...and if we do that, what are our available options? Its a crapshoot.

The comparison is the HBC we had was sht at being a HBC and building a staff (and the fact that Foley gave him TOO many years to try it). THAT was a major reason for the turnover of staff in the past several years. The other SEC programs you mention, they have had turnover as well. AL has held Kirby for 8 yrs, but how many changes have they had on the offensive side? We've got two coaches that served as OC there under Saban. Richt was long standing, but he's been cycling thru OC's as well with Sablehouse, Bobo, and who knows what other circus animals. MSU is on their 3rd DC in 3 yrs, I believe, and perhaps their 6th in 8 yrs? Spurrier was swapping DCs trying to find something that worked beyond having Clowney on the field, and Miles lost his DC as well. Auburn? Plenty of turnover below the HBC, enough to drive them to hire Muschamp.




Again, how many 'brand name, proven coach(es)' have been out there that would come here? Yeah, we could have been gouged and overpaid for a name, and it might still not turn out (ie, Spurrier could have squeezed USCe to the breaking point based on his name and 'proven' record). Which is worse - paying what you have to in order to land someone you think is the next winner, or overpaying based on the name? For either, you still have the risk of it not working out.

This thread and my post were referring to head coaches, not assistant coaches; therefore what has happened at LSU, UGA (prior to Richt being fired last month), Bama, etc aren't relevant because they haven't changed head coaches in quite a while (Prior to Richt's firing). Your reference to Tennessee actually supports what I've said. TN hired second rate head coaches and because of that they haven't been relevant for over a decade. Had they been able (or willing to pay) to land a proven head coach with a name then their rebuilding may have happened faster.

Whether a big name coach is actually available/unemployed shouldn't and doesn't preclude us from reaching out to big names that may still be coaching another school but possibly available for the right sum of money. It's one if those situations where the AD shouldn't rule out contacting anybody because he isn't sure if the coach is "available". Before Foley hired Mac, Foley made it known that Rich Rod and Dan Mullen weren't being considered for the job. That's inexcusable for a number of reasons.

As far as assistant coaches, I have brought this up in other posts on multiple occasions but I'll say it again. We have had more turnover in the ranks of our assistants, especially our coordinators than several of our successful competitors. We also tend to have a lower salary pool for our assistants. Those are facts. I tend to believe there is a correlation between the two. A couple of years ago our assistant salary pool wasn't even ranked in the top 20. That is not a recipe for success plain and simple. If we want to compete with the upper echelon of the CFB world then we need to keep pace in coaches salaries and facilities. If we don't we will continue to be at a disadvantage.