Question about coaching hires...

[Blacklabgator]

First, I just want to be sure that it is understood by everyone that Foley did not hire Spurrier. Just in case there is any confusion. Not to keep beating a dead horse but Foley really f'd up by:
1) Letting Meyer hang around for a year when he, Foley, should have known better.
2) After having a year to look landing an unproven DC
3) Backing up the brinks truck to 'chumps house and giving him guaranteed millions that we are still paying today
4) Keeping 'chump around too long which further damaged the Florida brand.

Second with regards to recruiting I too wonder about these issues:
1) "Are facilities... an issue?"
2) "Are our standards for student/athletes to get in too high compared to our rivals?"
3) "Is GPD too tight compared to law enforcement in other college cities?"

Those are three issues that the AD can have an impact on.
#1 is easy enough to fix if you're not paying ex coach $2 mil/year
#2 requires working with the administration but arrangements are not unheard of regarding grades. Also regarding drug (weed) testing which is a UF policy. If the competition ain't doing it then neither should we.
#3 a little more complicated but the relationship between GPD and UF athletics has never been symbiotic. Certainly not in the 20+ years Foley has been around. Foley could be developing relationships with the GPD that foster a friendly relationship.

And finally, just of the sake of not having to rebuild every time you have a coaching change don't hire HC with distinctly different styles. We went from pro style athletes with Spurrier/Zook to spread offense players with Meyer to no offense with 'Chump back to pro style.

As far as #1, some of the facility upgrades, such as the housing is a UF issue, not an Athletic one I believe.
And #2 isn't ever going to change.

 

[78]

Would Foley be judged as harshly if Bama hadn't gotten lucky enough to hire Saban and dominate the SEC West as it has? Probably not. As Okee Joe pointed out, Bama wasn't exactly hitting it out of the park prior to Saban. That one hire coupled with Meyer's meltdown -- and it's Monday morning quarterbacking to blame Foley for staying with Meyer in 2010 -- helped change the balance of power in the SEC. It may end up taking a full decade, if not more, for UF to recover from that and the ill-fated decision to hire Muschamp based on a daylong interview in Austin.

 

[Blacklabgator]

Would Foley be judged as harshly if Bama hadn't gotten lucky enough to hire Saban and dominate the SEC West as it has? Probably not. As Okee Joe pointed out, Bama wasn't exactly hitting it out of the park prior to Saban. That one hire coupled with Meyer's meltdown -- and it's Monday morning quarterbacking to blame Foley for staying with Meyer in 2010 -- helped change the balance of power in the SEC. It may end up taking a full decade, if not more, for UF to recover from that and the ill-fated decision to hire Muschamp based on a daylong interview in Austin.

If he had ran Meyer off the first go around and he had gone somewhere else and started winning. People would have burned his house down.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Would Foley be judged as harshly if Bama hadn't gotten lucky enough to hire Saban and dominate the SEC West as it has? Probably not. As Okee Joe pointed out, Bama wasn't exactly hitting it out of the park prior to Saban.

Thats the point isnt it? Bammer (and Michigan and OSU) learned to swing for the fences and we havent.

 

[GatorStud]

The rise in GPA requirements has certainly effected the crowd and party mix at games :cool:

 

[78]

Thats the point isnt it? Bammer (and Michigan and OSU) learned to swing for the fences and we havent.

I think it's more a matter of timing and cultural fit. Saban happened to become available at the time Bama was looking and he already had a history in the SEC. Badabing. Who was the automatic home run hire a year ago? Freeze? I don't think so.

 

[G8RATL]

More to the "cheap" theory

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/2001-08-03-coaches-cover.htm

In 2001 Spurrier was highest paid college FB coach, and Billy Donovan was #4 BB coach

Spurrier became highest paid college FB coach in 1996.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/1996/10/17/met_200024.shtml#.VpHJ8VKYIrh

He went from about $1 million per year in 1996 to $2.1 million in 2001.

The difference here is that they became the highest...they weren't hired as the highest because that is not Foley's style. In the Spurrier and Billy D. case, Foley hired up and coming talent at a moderate salary, they proved themselves, and got paid. Not a bad model. The win now philosophy has taken over college football. The Foley hope and prayer approach is a lottery ticket but takes years to find out if you won. You put your money in and hope you score on finding the gem. We have two new coaches that haven't proven a thing yet (good or bad). Time will tell.

 

[TheDouglas78]

Thats the point isnt it? Bammer (and Michigan and OSU) learned to swing for the fences and we havent.

Michigan didn't start swing to the fences until after a couple of bad hires then they got a Michigan Man, and OSU first swing to the fences was Meyer.. which wasn't much of a swing. Tressell and Cooper before him weren't exactly those types of hires. We have had one horrible hire where a full timetable to search for candidates was available. At the time that hire didn't seem so bad, the two contract extensions were just highly out of place. But lets not forget what happened before teams were swinging to the fences...

 

[L-boy]

The difference here is that they became the highest...they weren't hired as the highest because that is not Foley's style. In the Spurrier and Billy D. case, Foley hired up and coming talent at a moderate salary, they proved themselves, and got paid. Not a bad model. The win now philosophy has taken over college football. The Foley hope and prayer approach is a lottery ticket but takes years to find out if you won. You put your money in and hope you score on finding the gem. We have two new coaches that haven't proven a thing yet (good or bad). Time will tell.

Fair enough, but there aren't that many examples of where a major programs backs the truck up and steals away a highly successful establish coach from another big program. It just rarely happens. Even when it happens, it is when a bigger program gets the guy from a not quite as big program, and the guy is relatively new to the position. And that doesn't always work out either.

 

[TLB]

I guess the question I ask - who do all the detractors think has a model that works? Ok, sure Saban turned out well. But what other school out there - especially in the SEC has done such a great job at hiring coaches that we would considered canning Foley?

This still rings loud and clear to me. I know for some football is the only sport by which an AD is to be evaluated, and we've proven repeatedly on here that arguing the point with those mindsets tends to be fruitless. I still believe an AD's job is for ALL sports, not just football. The other sports aren't as visible or revenue generating, but history proves Foley has made good hires across the board during his tenure. Our domination of the all-sports trophies makes that indisputable. This is a big reason why I think he does have a 'system' or 'process' that mostly works. But it isn't foolproof, occasionally there are bad hires.

Sticking with football, for the sake of the narrow minded, there aren't many schools that have done as well (or, in fairness, as poorly) as we have in Foley's tenure.

A successful AD has to be able to pick out an up and coming guy, like a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer and take a chance on him. Those two were not big names when they came to Gainesville. They were up-and-comers who eventually became the next big names. Really good programs like Florida, which have the potential to go all the way to the top, have away better chance of attracting the next big name than almost all other schools do. The already established big names are already too entrenched in their current jobs or are getting too up in years to just pull up stakes to start over again. I remember when Mack Brown left Texas, the Longhorns thought they were going to get Nick Saban to move to Austin. They can think again.

If you look back over the entire body of work Jeremy Foley has done with the football program, he has done more than just pretty good. Remember, after Bear Bryant retired and Alabama landed Nick Saban, they went through Ray Perkins, Bill Curry, Gene Stallings, Mike Dubose, Dennis Franchione, Mike Price, Mike Shula, and Joe Kines. Getting a Steve Spurrier or an Urban Meyer every decade or so is really an outstanding job by an athletic director.

As Joe points out, even the almighty Alabama has repeatedly hit the do-over button, and more recently we watched Michigan going through that. But here's the key of what Joe reminds me of - even our home run hires weren't 'back up the Brinks truck' type hires. Other than his folklore for playing at UF, was Spurrier a known commodity when we started coaching for us? I don't believe so, and I don't recall us celebrating getting a coach that everyone else was dying to have. It was a gamble of a hire, though I see above Foley didn't hire him so no kudos to Foley for placing the bet - that doesn't change the Florida hiring process, but it does make a precedent statement of what Foley did in following years. Meyer was a hot commodity at the time, and I expect we had to pony up more than we might want in order to ensure we got him rather than ND. His situation reminds me very much of WM in that he was the hot coach that year, and we were considered fortunate to win his services over traditionally a powerhouse program (ND and TX). One worked out, one sht the bed badly. But at the time of hire, we thought they were good bets, good 'up and comers'. Zook...I dunno, total brain fart.

Other than Alabama getting Saban when they did, who else has a proven home run hire? You can't throw Harbaugh out there anymore than I can throw Mac out there being first year coaches at those programs. Even USCe in hiring our beloved SOS proved not to be a homerun - he couldn't get it done there for a myriad of reasons. Other than the timing being right for AL having a need and Saban leaving the NFL, and AL being one of those programs that could outbid everyone that year for his services, they haven't had top level success since Bryant. I don't recall salaries, but I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't hired as one of the top salaries in the nation at the time. I'm also willing to bet that it was the minimum required to land his services, allowing for future success to garner raises and bonuses going forward.

Name any other program, SEC or nationally, that's had a great hire in the last decade? The ONLY ones that comes to mind is Meyer and Saban. Meyer for us was the right guy and the right job at the right time. Then, for tOSU Meyer had his own set of issues (burned out from us, always loved tOSU, etc), and Saban also was a case of the right guy and the right job meeting at the right time. That's two guys out of 120+ D1 schools over the last many years. That's it.

 

[T REX]

You can't throw Harbaugh out there

Btw, your post was pretty good and made a lot sense overall. I have a problem with this statement. Harbaugh is more than proven on multiple levels at multiple stops. Two 11-1's at San Diego - 12-1 at Stanford - Two NFC title games in the NFL and he just went 10-3 at Michigan. He's been a winner everywhere he's been. He's a great coach and a HOME RUN hire for anyone that hires him. This is fact. I know it kills people to say it but he's a better coach than Mac by a wide margin. That may change and we all hope it does. By saying that, it doesn't take anything away from Mac.

 

[TLB]

Spurrier being the highest paid college football coach was 15 years ago. Times change yet it seems the salary we pay our football coaches is circa 2008 despite it being 2016.

As far as other SEC schools and their model, how many of the quality SEC programs have had turnover in their HC ranks over the past few years prior to Richt being fired at the end of this season? Saban, Miles, Richt and Spurrier had been at their schools since 2007 or prior. We have had 3 different HC's since 2007 so your question is somewhat moot. Auburn has had some turnover but, heck, even the Missy's, traditionally irrelevant, have become respectable of late due to some decent hires.

You are right in that they have sustained HC tenure, which creates stability for the program and a continuity of philosophy for the kids. But staff under the HBC changes all the time, everywhere. Not just for salary reasons, more often there are performance vs expectation issues, or possibly just philophical issues, sometimes there is arrogant bastard (sorry, WM personality type) issues, and sometimes it's a chance to jump at a better option.

We've had 3 different HC's since 2007. Unarguable. LSU has discussed making the change, despite getting a NC. How many have TN gone thru in that time frame since they got rid of the fat pumpkin? It hasn't led to success, unless we're counting moral victories. How many schools have stuck with coaches but aren't bringing the team to the top level (excepting a few years given a star player like USCe with Clowney and aTm with Manziel)? It's a decision ADs have to make - do I stick with the guy and give him more time to work it out, or do we hit the reset and try again...and if we do that, what are our available options? Its a crapshoot.

The comparison is the HBC we had was sht at being a HBC and building a staff (and the fact that Foley gave him TOO many years to try it). THAT was a major reason for the turnover of staff in the past several years. The other SEC programs you mention, they have had turnover as well. AL has held Kirby for 8 yrs, but how many changes have they had on the offensive side? We've got two coaches that served as OC there under Saban. Richt was long standing, but he's been cycling thru OC's as well with Sablehouse, Bobo, and who knows what other circus animals. MSU is on their 3rd DC in 3 yrs, I believe, and perhaps their 6th in 8 yrs? Spurrier was swapping DCs trying to find something that worked beyond having Clowney on the field, and Miles lost his DC as well. Auburn? Plenty of turnover below the HBC, enough to drive them to hire Muschamp.

Let me rephrase for you...there really isn't another SEC team we can compare our situation to as the upper tier scools haven't had turnover like we have and haven't had to hire new coaches. Therefore, you really can't compare their situations to ours. With the turnover we have had, we have had the opportunity to open the vault to fill a need (i.e.-hire a new coaching staff) and we haven't spent much money, relatively speaking, to get a brand name, proven coach.

Again, how many 'brand name, proven coach(es)' have been out there that would come here? Yeah, we could have been gouged and overpaid for a name, and it might still not turn out (ie, Spurrier could have squeezed USCe to the breaking point based on his name and 'proven' record). Which is worse - paying what you have to in order to land someone you think is the next winner, or overpaying based on the name? For either, you still have the risk of it not working out.

 

[TLB]

Btw, your post was pretty good and made a lot sense overall. I have a problem with this statement. Harbaugh is more than proven on multiple levels at multiple stops. Two 11-1's at San Diego - 12-1 at Stanford - Two NFC title games in the NFL and he just went 10-3 at Michigan. He's been a winner everywhere he's been. He's a great coach and a HOME RUN hire for anyone that hires him. This is fact. I know it kills people to say it but he's a better coach than Mac by a wide margin. That may change and we all hope it does. By saying that, it doesn't take anything away from Mac.

I forgot his time at Stanford. Tbh, I reallyl liked what he did there as well. I just don't believe one can compare NFL and NCAA success. There are several college coaches that failed at the NFL (Spurrier, Saban, Kelly, etc). I can't recall any NFL coaches going back down to NCAA other than maybe Erickson (sp?) and where is he now? He had success at both levels and is in a backwater today. To me, they are two different animals - easy replacement of players for the NFL, recruiting grinds for NCAA, .... two different animals.

However, you are spot on and I will half-retract that Harbaugh can't be considered a home run. He's proven it at the college level at Stanford, but he needs more than a year at MICH to prove it there. Spurrier was awesome at UF, not so much at USCe. But Harbaugh is undeniably doing well out of the gate, and all signs point to a home run hire.

 

[G8RATL]

What really ticks me off is when we have a successful coach, we always get bailed on. Whether it is "heart" problems, want to try the NFL, want to try the NBA, we always seem to be the program that gets left behind. Why can't we have our Coach K (Billy) or Saban (Meyer, Spurrier)?; the type of coaches that enjoy success, win, and aren't lured away by the next level or another college job. We aren't the only pressure cooker around and our fans are no more delusional than the next fan base.

 

[TLB]

Saban got lured away by the NFL after 5 yrs at LSU, same as Meyer left us after 5-ish years. He's been at AL for 8+, but who knows if he'll get the itch again.

Coach K seems happy at NCAA level (and coaching Olympic teams and stuff), never had the itch. One of the extremely rare coaches with sustained success an no itch, in any sport.

 

[T REX]

I forgot his time at Stanford. Tbh, I reallyl liked what he did there as well. I just don't believe one can compare NFL and NCAA success. There are several college coaches that failed at the NFL (Spurrier, Saban, Kelly, etc). I can't recall any NFL coaches going back down to NCAA other than maybe Erickson (sp?) and where is he now? He had success at both levels and is in a backwater today. To me, they are two different animals - easy replacement of players for the NFL, recruiting grinds for NCAA, .... two different animals.

However, you are spot on and I will half-retract that Harbaugh can't be considered a home run. He's proven it at the college level at Stanford, but he needs more than a year at MICH to prove it there. Spurrier was awesome at UF, not so much at USCe. But Harbaugh is undeniably doing well out of the gate, and all signs point to a home run hire.

Agree on the NFL vs NCAA. I put it out there more as proof that he just wins everywhere versus only in the NCAA or NFL. He just wins everywhere. I'd like to think Meyer would probably win in the NFL too. It is hard to say though.

 

[TLB]

lmao...I'd bet Urbs would have heart trouble by the 3 game of the season in the NFL. Be worth watching, though. I though Chip would have success coming from Oregon, but um...yeah, not so much. Wouldn't surprise me to see Saban try NFL again, or not, either way. I'd just be real interested in what AL did if Saban left them.

 

[TheDouglas78]

Btw, your post was pretty good and made a lot sense overall. I have a problem with this statement. Harbaugh is more than proven on multiple levels at multiple stops. Two 11-1's at San Diego - 12-1 at Stanford - Two NFC title games in the NFL and he just went 10-3 at Michigan. He's been a winner everywhere he's been. He's a great coach and a HOME RUN hire for anyone that hires him. This is fact. I know it kills people to say it but he's a better coach than Mac by a wide margin. That may change and we all hope it does. By saying that, it doesn't take anything away from Mac.

Who is saying that Harbaugh doesn't have a better track record than McElwain. I've heard people say they wouldn't want him, but not that he doesn't have a better track record. It sounds like you are making up arguments. I'm a Harbaugh fan, but I don't know if his brand would sell for Florida (the fanbase). I do know his brand and his style of place is perfect fit for the Big 10.

The question is fit, and we don't know if McElwain is a fit here or if Harbaugh would have been a fit here. If both the Michigan Job and the Florida Job are open, Harbaugh is taking Michigan. We don't know if he was contacted, but we know they needed a splash. Michigan Brand is historically better than the Florida Brand. They have had Lloyd Car who is lucky to win one, Rich Rod who was a absolute failure, and that other jabroni. We don't know who is really going to be better at their present job. It's year one and one fell into a much better situation than the other. Benefits that Harbaugh does have is the fact he can recruit using his NFL experience, no NCAA coach can recruit with that cred since Bill Walsh went back to Stanford after Championships with the 49ers.

Harbaugh is a hellva a coach, would have loved to see him in the Orange and Blue, but I doubt there was a snowball shot in hell that it would happen. He would have taken less money to work at Michigan.

 

[T REX]

Who is saying that Harbaugh doesn't have a better track record than McElwain. I've heard people say they wouldn't want him, but not that he doesn't have a better track record. It sounds like you are making up arguments. I'm a Harbaugh fan, but I don't know if his brand would sell for Florida (the fanbase). I do know his brand and his style of place is perfect fit for the Big 10.

The question is fit, and we don't know if McElwain is a fit here or if Harbaugh would have been a fit here. If both the Michigan Job and the Florida Job are open, Harbaugh is taking Michigan. We don't know if he was contacted, but we know they needed a splash. Michigan Brand is historically better than the Florida Brand. They have had Lloyd Car who is lucky to win one, Rich Rod who was a absolute failure, and that other jabroni. We don't know who is really going to be better at their present job. It's year one and one fell into a much better situation than the other. Benefits that Harbaugh does have is the fact he can recruit using his NFL experience, no NCAA coach can recruit with that cred since Bill Walsh went back to Stanford after Championships with the 49ers.

Harbaugh is a hellva a coach, would have loved to see him in the Orange and Blue, but I doubt there was a snowball shot in hell that it would happen. He would have taken less money to work at Michigan.

TLB said:

who else has a proven home run hire? You can't throw Harbaugh out there

My post was in response to that. Harbaugh was a home run hire regardless of where he went. He's a home run hire. I don't think I am making anything up.

 

[TheDouglas78]

TLB said:


My post was in response to that. Harbaugh was a home run hire regardless of where he went. He's a home run hire. I don't think I am making anything up.

I didn't say anything about homerun hire when making things up, I said you were talking about who has the better resume. T get your own arguments straight.