Baseball's Hall without Bonds or Clemens is a joke

[Gatorup!]

RE baseball and statistics, major league baseball has a much longer and deeper history than pro football, so IMO stating that football is more about winning than stats compared to baseball is off-base.

Shoot, if Brady wasn't so dominant we'd still be hearing about all of peyton's TD passes and how he was in the conversation for GOAT.

And ain't nobody talking about streaming baseball on facebook as mcmahon and the xfl are. Tradition runs deep with baseball.

 

[Woodroe]

Bonds was a good but not really great player prior to the steroids and the 50 to 80 homerun seasons.

I had to stare at this stat for awhile to believe it but he only had one 50+ season.

 

[Since65]

Again, Bobby Bonds hit 300 w 25 hrs.... and actually swiped a bunch of bases too.... and yet he is not in the Hall of Fame.

I think Jr. Griffey was a contemporary who is useful for comparison. Like most players his performance started dropping off when he hit 30 or so and he was pretty much done by 35 to 37. before steroids if you guys would hang on a few more years maybe into the 40s serving as a pinch hitter or the occasional designated hitter, usually with a lot less power than they used to have.

If you look at Barry Bonds numbers at the Pirates, while nice, and--I guess-- try to imagine what it would have looked like as he dropped below .300 and started hitting 15 to 20 homers instead of 25 had he not gotten on the juice, it's pretty easy to imagine him not being anywhere near the Hall of Fame.

Bonds was a good but not really great player prior to the steroids and the 50 to 80 homerun seasons.

I'm actually hard-pressed to think of any player who suddenly started hitting twice the home runs when he hit 30 years old and kept increasing his performance after he hit 40.

So Bobby Bonds hit over .300 ONCE. Never hit 40 homers. Good career but not a valid comparison to his son.

Yea, Barry's numbers with the Pirates were "nice" ....considering he won two NL MVP awards while there. And another with the Giants prior to when he is considered to have started steroids. I would love to know how many 3-time MVP winners are not in the Hall of Fame.

To say Bonds was a "good but not great player" prior to steroids simply ignores the facts.

 

[rogdochar]

Apples and oranges. Changes in the balls, bats, turf, parks, those have all happened throughout the history of the game.

Changes that were equal for all across the spectrum.
The very essence of MLB's HOF is comparisons to stats of the "greats" that went before.
I remember my puzzlement, when upon chewing the bubblegum in my Bonds BGBB card, I felt hyper all day long.
Bonds was convicted of perjury obstruction of justice in the federal case about his steroid use. Precisely, Bonds was convicted for giving incomplete answers under oath. Wow, compare that to modern testimonies on IRS scandal, Benghazi, illegal transport/keeping of classified E-mails, etc.etc.
Bonds' personal shopper, Kathy H., testified seeing personal trainer Anderson inject Bonds in 2002. (wonder what Babe Ruth's personal shopper saw?)
Parallel to what the Russian Olympics Female weight lifters accomplished, allowing only women to use steroids could fill MLB with gender equality in baseball heroes.??
McMahon could start his MLB league on steroids = Major Leap Baseball. The enhanced violence would up the audiences & $.

 

[Since65]

I guess it all depends when you believe he started juicing. PED use in cycling exploded somewhere in the late ‘80’s to early ‘90’s. Since baseball wasn’t even close to their testing measures, I think it’s fair to say that roids and other PED’s occurred around the same time or sooner. Look at Canseco and how he performed which was around the same time period. So who is to say that Bonds wasn’t cheating at that time? Which would put all of his accomplishments under scrutiny.

It is widely accepted that Bonds began after the '98 season when Sosa and McGuire (2 pretty good players before steroids) juiced up and had the entire sports world watching them chase the Babe's record. Bonds had an excellent season (.303 BA, 37 homers, 122 rbi) and was pretty much ignored. That is when he decided to join the clear/crème club. This is well documented in the book Game of Shadows.

I think even those who despise Bonds and discount his records believe his pre-1999 performances to be clean. Three NL MVP's during that time lead me to believe he was Hall-worthy just based on those accomplishments.

There's no question in my mind that Bonds' treatment of the press and the fans contribute to how he's viewed from a historical perspective. Surly is one word to describe him. The opposite would be Big Papi who gets a media pass because he's so likeable and fun and all that. The guy hits 38 home runs at age FORTY and no one is the least bit suspicious? He was mentioned in the Mitchell report but people choose to overlook that.

 

[Woodroe]

I would love to know how many 3-time MVP winners are not in the Hall of Fame.

ARod is the only other 3 timer that won't be.

 

[Woodroe]

I would love to know how many 3-time MVP winners are not in the Hall of Fame.

Another crazy stat is that it took Campanella and Foxx 7 or 8 times on the ballot to get in as 3 time MVPs.

All other 3 timers got in first ballot except those 2 and Bonds who is the only player ever with more than 3. He's got 7. Count them, 7 MVPs. And he will not get in. No chance. He made that bed though.

 

[Since65]

Another crazy stat is that it took Campanella and Foxx 7 or 8 times on the ballot to get in as 3 time MVPs.

All other 3 timers got in first ballot except those 2 and Bonds who is the only player ever with more than 3. He's got 7. Count them, 7 MVPs. And he will not get in. No chance. He made that bed though.

The fact that there hasn't ever been a unanimous choice for the Hall (Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, etc) shows that the voters let personal issues impact their choices.

And I don't disagree that Bonds chose his own path and is paying for those choices.

 

[78]

Again, Bobby Bonds hit 300 w 25 hrs.... and actually swiped a bunch of bases too.... and yet he is not in the Hall of Fame.

I think Jr. Griffey was a contemporary who is useful for comparison. Like most players his performance started dropping off when he hit 30 or so and he was pretty much done by 35 to 37. before steroids if you guys would hang on a few more years maybe into the 40s serving as a pinch hitter or the occasional designated hitter, usually with a lot less power than they used to have.

If you look at Barry Bonds numbers at the Pirates, while nice, and--I guess-- try to imagine what it would have looked like as he dropped below .300 and started hitting 15 to 20 homers instead of 25 had he not gotten on the juice, it's pretty easy to imagine him not being anywhere near the Hall of Fame.

Bonds was a good but not really great player prior to the steroids and the 50 to 80 homerun seasons.

I'm actually hard-pressed to think of any player who suddenly started hitting twice the home runs when he hit 30 years old and kept increasing his performance after he hit 40.

Why do you insist on arguing Barry is an apple simply because he fell off the Bonds tree?

He's a plum by comparison.

 

[alcoholica]

It is widely accepted that Bonds began after the '98 season when Sosa and McGuire (2 pretty good players before steroids) juiced up and had the entire sports world watching them chase the Babe's record. Bonds had an excellent season (.303 BA, 37 homers, 122 rbi) and was pretty much ignored. That is when he decided to join the clear/crème club. This is well documented in the book Game of Shadows.

I think even those who despise Bonds and discount his records believe his pre-1999 performances to be clean. Three NL MVP's during that time lead me to believe he was Hall-worthy just based on those accomplishments.

There's no question in my mind that Bonds' treatment of the press and the fans contribute to how he's viewed from a historical perspective. Surly is one word to describe him. The opposite would be Big Papi who gets a media pass because he's so likeable and fun and all that. The guy hits 38 home runs at age FORTY and no one is the least bit suspicious? He was mentioned in the Mitchell report but people choose to overlook that.

It may be widely accepted, but that doesn’t make it fact. There is no telling what he was taking or when he was taking. Safe bet is as soon as he thought he’d get away with it. So again, look at Canseco and the World Series runs...late 80’s. The stuff was around. Many reasons why he may have not gone full retard with it early on

 

[gingerlover]

The fact that there hasn't ever been a unanimous choice for the Hall (Mays, Mantle, DiMaggio, etc) shows that the voters let personal issues impact their choices.

And I don't disagree that Bonds chose his own path and is paying for those choices.

That and since Ruth wasn’t unanimous there is an unspoken rule that no one can be. Like it would diminish him if they did.

 

[Since65]

It may be widely accepted, but that doesn’t make it fact. There is no telling what he was taking or when he was taking. Safe bet is as soon as he thought he’d get away with it. So again, look at Canseco and the World Series runs...late 80’s. The stuff was around. Many reasons why he may have not gone full retard with it early on

I don't know of anyone close to the Bonds situation who names him as an early user. His relationship with Balco and the trainer who served time for keeping quiet didn't begin until very late 90's. The facts that are known don't square up with Bonds being one of the first to experiment. Again, Game of Shadows was painstakingly researched and puts the timeline as post-98.

 

[Woodroe]

Why do you insist on arguing Barry is an apple simply because he fell off the Bonds tree?

He's a plum by comparison.

Plum presteroids

Shriveled into a prune post steroids

 

[T REX]

I am fine without the steroid users getting in and even putting an asterisk next to any of their records.

 

[Gator Fever]

I guess this is a side effect of steroids sometimes.

 

[Gatormac2112]

I was a huge McGwire fan back in the day.....thus the "Mac" in Gatormac2112. I've used this handle since Al Gore invented the internet. However, I was supremely disappointed and quit watching baseball. I used to watch every night....now I haven't watched a game since McGwire took the fifth.

I understand that there are a lot of guys in the hall that are undeserving, but I really believe that if they used PED's they should never be considered.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

So Bobby Bonds hit over .300 ONCE. Never hit 40 homers. Good career but not a valid comparison to his son..

Its a valid comparison to what Barry Bonds did BEFORE he started taking steroids, gained 80 pounds and grew a head the size of a VW.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Why do you insist on arguing Barry is an apple simply because he fell off the Bonds tree?

He's a plum by comparison.

I argue it bc it is a convenient comparison to Barry Bonds stats with the Pirates, a .300/25 guy. I agree steroids were around before that but there is no evidence Bonds was on the juice til he arrived in San Fran and suddenly looked like he could play DE for the Raiders.

 

[Since65]

Its a valid comparison to what Barry Bonds did BEFORE he started taking steroids, gained 80 pounds and grew a head the size of a VW.

Barry had six .300 BA seasons, three 40+ home run seasons and three NL MVP awards BEFORE his head grew to the size of a VW.

So, not a valid comparison.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Barry had six .300 BA seasons, three 40+ home run seasons and three NL MVP awards BEFORE his head grew to the size of a VW.

So, not a valid comparison.

Sorry, not the case. I know you are hellbent on declaring him not on steroids til 98 deapite the fact that he looked like a different person hia first spring in SF. I lterally didnt recognize him. He looked more like Bobby Bonilla than Barry Bonds.

It really doesnt matter. The HOF has spoken. You and 78 lose.