Baseball's Hall without Bonds or Clemens is a joke

[LeeForThree]

I would support them making the Hall only if it were in a special wing called “the players that ruined baseball”.

I love almost all sports, but I lived and breathed baseball from the time I could walk until after high school. I loved it because of the “purity” of the game, which fundamentally hadn’t changed for 100 years. You could legitimately compare a number of statistics across generations...a .400 batting average, or 60 HRs, or a 2.0 ERA meant something in all of the eras.

And these guys ruined that. They knowingly and purposefully cheated, smashing records as a result of that cheating that sullied the parts that made baseball great.

So f*ck them...no way they should even be on the ballots.

Another point. What baseball itself has done to the actual baseball has juiced numbers just as much as steroids. So Judge and Stanton are never getting into the Hall right?

 

[maheo30]

So Bonds should be voted in because he would have been a HoFer?

I didn’t get a chance to watch a ton of Vlad, but was he really that good? He was a freak athlete and an all-star, but he never struck me as a HoFer. As I sai, that’s based on limited viewing.

 

[Since65]

Barry Bonds presteroids was a nice 300 and 25 hr year a guy, a nice player no doubt. He was basically, Bobby Bonds, who isnt in the HOF either.

Bonds pre-steroid had six 30 home run seasons and three 40 home run seasons. He won THREE National League Most Valuable Player awards....all before he juiced.

 

[Since65]

Hall of Fame voters have already put steroid users into their special club. Piazza, Bagwell and Pudge were all connected to steroids. And who knows how many others not named in the Mitchell report were using. It was rampant during that period of time. If they want to create a "Steroid user wing" in the Hall that's fine. It's ludicrous to keep the best players from that era out of the Hall in the name of purity.

 

[78]

I disagree. What they did was wrong. But literally the advantages gained from steroids are directly unknown on that level. You take a hall of fame hitter in Bonds, is it really going to make him astronomically better to be the greatest ever. You can assume this happened, but it's just an assumption and not correct imo.

Added to the fact that pitchers were using it just as much as hitters....Bonds didn't have a clear advantage if you believe it gave him one

I mean Dee Gordon got busted for steroids and he isn't even as strong as most high schoolers lol

Exactly. Steroids have nothing to do with reading a curve or slider or making consistent contact with the ball. Baseball skills do.

 

[divits]

The pictures speak for themselves. Bonds cheated and without steroids would have had a hard time picking up a bat let alone swinging it hard enough to hit a HR.

Ruth did it on hot dogs, beer and cigarettes.

 

[Windy City Gator]

So Bonds should be voted in because he would have been a HoFer?

I didn’t get a chance to watch a ton of Vlad, but was he really that good? He was a freak athlete and an all-star, but he never struck me as a HoFer. As I sai, that’s based on limited viewing.

Vlad was a complete STUD!!! Power. Speed. Defense. An amazing arm! He was the full package!!! The reason you probably didnt get to see him that much is that he played for Montreal and then on the left coast. Had he played in NY or Chicago or Boston he would have been a household name. Vlad is VERY deserving of getting into the hall. Look back on some of those Expos teams before they moved and the amount of young talent. Big Unit. Pedro. Vlad. Larry Walker. Tim Raines. The list goes one. Glad that Vlad got in.

 

[BNAG8R]

Another point. What baseball itself has done to the actual baseball has juiced numbers just as much as steroids. So Judge and Stanton are never getting into the Hall right?

Apples and oranges. Changes in the balls, bats, turf, parks, those have all happened throughout the history of the game. In the same way shoe and track surface changes have helped sprinters. The difference is that those changes didn’t give Judge and Stanton a competitive advantage over their peers, unless they used a different ball specifically for Judge and Stanton.

Technology arguments across eras will never be won. Officiating arguments across eras will never be won (Imagine if the strike zone today were called the way it was 100 years ago). Would 61 home runs today be equal to Ruth, or Maris? Maybe...maybe not. It would create a great debate that nobody would win. The fact that 70 and 73 are out there, even with the Scarlett letter A (for asterisks) next to them, will forever denigrate the accomplishment of 62 or more.

But Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds aren’t even worthy of the debate - and Bonds “career” HR record is a sham as well.

 

[LeeForThree]

Apples and oranges. Changes in the balls, bats, turf, parks, those have all happened throughout the history of the game. In the same way shoe and track surface changes have helped sprinters. The difference is that those changes didn’t give Judge and Stanton a competitive advantage over their peers, unless they used a different ball specifically for Judge and Stanton.

Technology arguments across eras will never be won. Officiating arguments across eras will never be won (Imagine if the strike zone today were called the way it was 100 years ago). Would 61 home runs today be equal to Ruth, or Maris? Maybe...maybe not. It would create a great debate that nobody would win. The fact that 70 and 73 are out there, even with the Scarlett letter A (for asterisks) next to them, will forever denigrate the accomplishment of 62 or more.

But Sosa, McGwire, and Bonds aren’t even worthy of the debate - and Bonds “career” HR record is a sham as well.

Bonds is the HR King.

At one time players didn't even lift weights or exercise outside of the game.
Things change

 

[BNAG8R]

Exactly. Steroids have nothing to do with reading a curve or slider or making consistent contact with the ball. Baseball skills do.

You’re right. Three guys, who all happened to get jacked up like race horses, all of a sudden through “baseball skills” shattered a decades old record that had barely been tested in decades. Not on, not two, but three of them....what a coincidence of “baseball skill”.

 

[divits]

If steroids aren't cheating then what's the big fuss about the Chinese women's swim team who went from nothing to best in the world in 3 years and the East German women's track team that was bigger and stronger than some men? What did they do any different than Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Clemens etc?

It's cheating plain and simple. Sure you may have some of the talent needed to hit and field but the recovery time and twitch of your muscles are effected abnormally and enhance the abilities you have unnaturally.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

What these guys did is the equivalent of changing all your player ratings to 99 in Madden and then wondering why everyone won't respect the numbers they put up.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

Exactly. Steroids have nothing to do with reading a curve or slider or making consistent contact with the ball. Baseball skills do.

Increased strength means increased bat speed means increased home runs. I'm a little baffled this has to be spelled out.

 

[Gatorbait25]

Exactly. Steroids have nothing to do with reading a curve or slider or making consistent contact with the ball. Baseball skills do.

Hand-eye coordination, practice , and god-given ability.

 

[78]

Increased strength means increased bad speed means increased home runs. I'm a little baffled this has to be spelled out.

My post obviously went above your head. I made no reference to home runs, however, if you apply critical thinking you may just hypothecate that Bonds likely would have notched fewer home runs but just as many extra-base hits and easily as good of average, together leading to his induction.

Look at his stats prior to his body blowing up. He was a superb hitter.

 

[TheDouglas78]

The main reason they took the cream and the clear was recovery, they could work out twice/three times as hard and recover faster. It also meant that regular wear and tear from playing recovered faster as well. Which meant more opportunities at the plate and in the field. To say that PED's didn't help these players is an absolute joke, and a false statement. That's not to say that other things have not been taken in the past.... nor did Bonds ever tested positive. He did have a mistress turn in a sample that she claimed was his.

 

[alcoholica]

Increased strength means increased bat speed means increased home runs. I'm a little baffled this has to be spelled out.

Not to disagree, but to add another perspective. Because bat speed could be increased, many players increased the weights of their bats also. Greater swing weight at the same speed equals greater power. Just basic physics. This is why you’d see players make some reaching swing with little bat speed, and the ball had enough juice to float over the wall.

 

[gingerlover]

The pictures speak for themselves. Bonds cheated and without steroids would have had a hard time picking up a bat let alone swinging it hard enough to hit a HR.

Ruth did it on hot dogs, beer and cigarettes.

While I agree with you it’s hard to compare many to Ruth. The quality of pitcher he faced isn’t the same as the modern era long before pitch count management, specialists, relievers, proper days off etc.

 

[Captain Sasquatch]

My post obviously went above your head. I made no reference to home runs, however, if you apply critical thinking you may just hypothecate that Bonds likely would have notched fewer home runs but just as many extra-base hits and easily as good of average, together leading to his induction.

Look at his stats prior to his body blowing up. He was a superb hitter.

If you could hypothecate how a man could hit career best numbers after hitting the age of 36 without juicing his ass up to high hell, then you'd be one hell of a hypothecater.

 

[HauntedGator]